Help Understanding Energy, Distance, and Angled Shots

[ResearchinStuff]

Just shoot a better bullet. I've had 3 impacts on deer with barnes tsx and impact velocity around 2900. All wounds were poor, back to lead for me.

 

[hereinaz]

The debate is endless. One way to satisfy yourself is to weigh the amount of evidence.

There is a massive thread of the .223 TMK killing stuff dead and showing massive wounds.

Is there a similar devotion of regular dudes dumping pics of monos killing? I am asking because I haven’t seen it.

The explanation of how and why the match bullets kill and how monos kill is pretty clear.

Making the decision, a shooter talking about going up in velocity and diameter of bullets to get better performance out of a mono is going the other way we match bullet fanbois who keep saying to go smaller and shoot better with less recoil.

 

[Macintosh]

Amount of evidence? Dont think there is a lack in any direction. There has never been a request or impetus for putting together a kill thread with monos that Im aware of. The “kill threads” exist in the first place because there was a need to prove that a .224 or .264 bullet was effective or that match bullets were effective. After decades of use I dont think there is a parallel need to prove a copper bullet works, only to make sure people have a realistic expectation of effective range. They have been in use for multiple decades, they may work different but they do work, and some prefer them. You’ll also find plenty of detractors of other bullets…core lokt, ballistic tips, berger, etc all have plenty of people with horror stories. I am one who has upped my velocity (but reduced caliber and bullet size) specifically for monos, despite a bit more recoil. It’s a 270, not a 338. If anything Id drop to a 6creed probably before I went up. No argument on wound size or on higher velocity requirement, or that some effective calibers are less well suited to copper, just prefer to eat my “off-side shoulder” rather than “trim it” on the typically 1-3 smallish deer I can get each year. I have no need for, nor skill to take advantage of, terminal performance on game past 500 yards. If/when I decide thats something important to me my bullet choice will likely need to change. Until then I dont really get the copper-bashing—use it within its limitations if you want it, if you want a bigger wound channel or equipment with a longer effective range, choose a different tool as suggested. Ive never had a bad experience, so I have a hard time wrapping my head around why anyone has consistent bad experience? Pretty sure I’m at 10/12 bang/flop at this point with ttsx, and those two went less than 40 yards—it’s always worked fine for me. Deer from 10/15/23 is latest, bang/flop copper…double-lung with a muzzleloader at less than 1700 fps…. Only pics I have are dinner though, sorry!

Relevance to this topic: perhaps 1900fps or whatever it was is too low, I dont know. Saying that wound channel trumps dead critters is no different than those who complain about eldm’s because they didnt create an exit wound or a perfectly photo-perfect mushroomed bullet…if it works, it works, you cant argue with a critter dead mere feet from where it was hit. I just have a hard time with the “use a better bullet” and similar comments, when the result was this:

I ranged a cow elk at 410 yards, angle corrected. With estimated angle at 30 degrees, it was a steep canyon. Shot was a perfect lung shot with the bullet lodged in the opposite shoulder blade, she didn't go more then ten yards

 

[Harvey_NW]

Making the decision, a shooter talking about going up in velocity and diameter of bullets to get better performance out of a mono is going the other way we match bullet fanbois who keep saying to go smaller and shoot better with less recoil.

I took the terminal ballistic dive and chose the middle road this year. 140 TGK out of a 6.5 PRC resulted in 2 bucks deadern'shit with 4" exit holes and no meat loss (the bloodshot was just under the sinew and cleaned off the shoulder). I think I found my preferred combo.

 

[hereinaz]

Amount of evidence? Dont think there is a lack in any direction. There has never been a request or impetus for putting together a kill thread with monos that Im aware of. The “kill threads” exist in the first place because there was a need to prove that a .224 or .264 bullet was effective or that match bullets were effective. After decades of use I dont think there is a parallel need to prove a copper bullet works, only to make sure people have a realistic expectation of effective range. They have been in use for multiple decades, they may work different but they do work, and some prefer them. You’ll also find plenty of detractors of other bullets…core lokt, ballistic tips, berger, etc all have plenty of people with horror stories. I am one who has upped my velocity (but reduced caliber and bullet size) specifically for monos, despite a bit more recoil. It’s a 270, not a 338. If anything Id drop to a 6creed probably before I went up. No argument on wound size or on higher velocity requirement, or that some effective calibers are less well suited to copper, just prefer to eat my “off-side shoulder” rather than “trim it” on the typically 1-3 smallish deer I can get each year. I have no need for, nor skill to take advantage of, terminal performance on game past 500 yards. If/when I decide thats something important to me my bullet choice will likely need to change. Until then I dont really get the copper-bashing—use it within its limitations if you want it, if you want a bigger wound channel or equipment with a longer effective range, choose a different tool as suggested. Ive never had a bad experience, so I have a hard time wrapping my head around why anyone has consistent bad experience? Pretty sure I’m at 10/12 bang/flop at this point with ttsx, and those two went less than 40 yards—it’s always worked fine for me. Deer from 10/15/23 is latest, bang/flop copper…double-lung with a muzzleloader at less than 1700 fps…. Only pics I have are dinner though, sorry!

Relevance to this topic: perhaps 1900fps or whatever it was is too low, I dont know. Saying that wound channel trumps dead critters is no different than those who complain about eldm’s because they didnt create an exit wound or a perfectly photo-perfect mushroomed bullet…if it works, it works, you cant argue with a critter dead mere feet from where it was hit. I just have a hard time with the “use a better bullet” and similar comments, when the result was this:

I think mono bullet shooters could put together excellent information to help others learn the pros and cons. Seems like failures are user error.

Eventually, more of us will be required to use monos, so it will be nice.

I think people killed with the .223 for decades too. It still helped to have a thread and was the specific reason hunters changed their mind and made a huge difference to kids and smaller women.

And, I don’t shoot mono’s so have no personal evidence and people that shoot it like you could put together a thread that explains the pros and cons.

I say you and others start to preach it! Learn us about them and dispel myths.

 

[JFK]

i don't like monos below 3000 fps impact. Others are more tolerant of poor wound profiles and use them lower, but I don't think anyone has posted actual photos of devastation on game below 2000.

3000fps impact velocity???

 

[ResearchinStuff]

Yes

 

[JFK]

Got it. What kind of “devastation” are you looking for besides dead animals. My experience has been that they kill plenty fast.

The deer I shot this year was is an opening and surrounded by steep brush and poisen oak. I didn’t want him to get into that brush and die. I shot him with a 129lrx and he died where he stood. Same with the pig the week before that, and same with the bull elk last year at 480 yards with Barnes lrx. Come to think of it I haven’t had a single animal (30ish animals from deer, antelope, elk and more pigs than I can remember) run what I would deem an unacceptable distance. Last year with the group I was hunting with we had bull elk shot with partitions from a 264mag , eld-x from an 7mag and an lrx from my 270. The bull shot with the lrx died the fastest and it was the longest shot at 480 yards, the lightest bullet, and had the slowest impact velocity of them all (based on data it was probably around 2100fps at impact). The only difference when skinning was that I didn’t have a bunch of shot up meat to post on the internet to prove how devastating it is. Small entry, small exit, lungs were soup. Works for me.

 

[ResearchinStuff]

I like caliber plus sized holes. Preferably lots of plus. I shot 3 deer with the 30 cal 165 tsx out of a 300 win mag, 15, 40, 95 yards. The last 2 had holes through the heart that I couldn't get my pinky finger into. That bullet wounds very poorly even at 28-2900 fps impact, hence my personal threshold of 3k for monos. Since that isn't very practical, I've gone back to lead core bullets.

 

[Macintosh]

I like caliber plus sized holes. Preferably lots of plus. I shot 3 deer with the 30 cal 165 tsx out of a 300 win mag, 15, 40, 95 yards. The last 2 had holes through the heart that I couldn't get my pinky finger into. That bullet wounds very poorly even at 28-2900 fps impact, hence my personal threshold of 3k for monos. Since that isn't very practical, I've gone back to lead core bullets.

Were they dead? How far from where they were hit?

 

[ResearchinStuff]

2 of the deer died with 1 shot. 1 bang flop, 1 40 yard zero blood, and one circus that was mostly my fault. In each case, definitively there was less tissue damage than I have had with identical shot placement and a lead core bullet.

I get that you and some others love barnes, but i've tried them, the results were unimpressive, and I won't go back unless legally required to. Nothing you can say will trump my first hand experiences.

 

[Macintosh]

2 of the deer died with 1 shot. 1 bang flop, 1 40 yard zero blood, and one circus that was mostly my fault. In each case, definitively there was less tissue damage than I have had with identical shot placement and a lead core bullet.

I get that you and some others love barnes, but i've tried them, the results were unimpressive, and I won't go back unless legally required to. Nothing you can say will trump my first hand experiences.

So, hard to say whether I would personally have been happy with those results or not, but I suspect that one bang flop, and one down in 40 yards, regardless of whether there was a blood trail or not, I would have considered those successful. I’ve also shot deer with an arrow that didn’t leave any blood trail for over 40 yards, sometimes stuff like that just happens. I am absolutely not trying to convince you to use copper. I don’t give a flying rats behind what you use, my only point in saying this is that what you were saying is coming off as a recommendation, but it looks to me like it’s based in preference not in actual success or failure. If you aren’t confident in copper because you want to see a different wound channel, just say that. If you aren’t confident in copper, because you want longer range performance, that’s also fine, just say that. Couching it in what appears to be a quantifiable recommendation (3k fps) is really muddying the water, not clearing anything up.

Personally, I use copper BECAUSE it has a narrower wound channel. I look at the kill threads for TMK’s and ELDM’s, and I think to myself that I would not want to use that bullet, because I would waste a significant portion of the meat I am able to get each year, and because what I’m using now is working well for me. I switched to copper specifically because I ruined less meat. To me, a narrow wound channel with a critter that’s down inside 40 yards, is the exact definition of success I’m looking for.

Noted that the original poster in post number 20 of this thread indicated he got a narrow wound channel and the elk was down in 10 yards. To me that sounds like a perfect outcome, exactly what I’m looking for, and that IS what I consider an “impressive” result.

 

[Wrench]

Ft/lbs is something I wish outdoor life wouldn't have printed in the 60's.

Impact velocity is the key. Drive a mono too slow or a thin skinned too fast and you have problems.

Know your impact velocity requirements and meet them.....and you'll be golden.

 

[S.Clancy]

I have primarily shot mono's at big game for ~10 years. I started with Barnes TTSX, then Hornady GMX, now, for the last 3-4 years, Hammer Bullets. Barnes TTSX and Hornady GMX kill, no doubt. We shot many elk and deer with them. The wound channels and blood trails left a lot to be desired, unfortunately. After switching to Hammers the difference is night and day. We had a hard cap of 400 yards with the TTSX/GMX (270 WIn), but have shot multiple deer and elk well past that range since switching to Hammers. The bullet performance difference is astounding.

I'm pretty doubtful that the Hammer will equal performance seen from the TMK or other lead bullets. If I was shooting extreme long range I would use those, but I don't so I won't.

 

[Macintosh]

I have primarily shot mono's at big game for ~10 years. I started with Barnes TTSX, then Hornady GMX, now, for the last 3-4 years, Hammer Bullets. Barnes TTSX and Hornady GMX kill, no doubt. We shot many elk and deer with them. The wound channels and blood trails left a lot to be desired, unfortunately. After switching to Hammers the difference is night and day. We had a hard cap of 400 yards with the TTSX/GMX (270 WIn), but have shot multiple deer and elk well past that range since switching to Hammers. The bullet performance difference is astounding.

I'm pretty doubtful that the Hammer will equal performance seen from the TMK or other lead bullets. If I was shooting extreme long range I would use those, but I don't so I won't.

Have you had a need to make a shoot/dont shoot decision where the firing solution said it was within your threshold, while the LOS distance said it was a no-go? In the OP’s example it may have been borderline dependent on his velocity threshold (LRX is supposed to expand at lower velocity than TTSX and according to barnes he was well within their published limits, while others say we should cut off at higher velocity…tbd what that velocity actually is), but ultimately it worked as advertised. My read of the situation is that since LOS distance largely determines velocity that has to be the metric used, but am curious how you have approached it and how you arrived at the range threshold.

 

[S.Clancy]

Have you had a need to make a shoot/dont shoot decision where the firing solution said it was within your threshold, while the LOS distance said it was a no-go? In the OP’s example it may have been borderline dependent on his velocity threshold (LRX is supposed to expand at lower velocity than TTSX and according to barnes he was well within their published limits), but ultimately it worked as advertised. My read of the situation is that since LOS distance largely determines velocity that has to be the metric used, but am curious how you have approached it and how you arrived at the range threshold.

The difference in the distance I will shoot at animals and my bullet's performance threshold (manufacturer tested to 1800 fps, I would err on the upside 2000 fps, personally longest shot was ~2200 fps impact velocity) is very far apart. It would take a shot at the edge of my comfort at an extreme downhill angle to get the situation that you described. So, the short answer to your question is no. The long answer is based on my comfort level and bullet performance the situation is highly, highly unlikely, so I ignore it.

 

[JFK]

Ft/lbs is something I wish outdoor life wouldn't have printed in the 60's.

Impact velocity is the key. Drive a mono too slow or a thin skinned too fast and you have problems.

Know your impact velocity requirements and meet them.....and you'll be golden.

This is an antelope with thin skin shot with a 110gr ttsx from a 270. Muzzle velocity 3300fps, impact 2805fps. Shot at around 200 yards. They do the same thing with thick skinned wild pigs.

 

[Mule3006Elk]

I shot monos for years. Still do but I favor bonded with high weight retention. Barnes does state 1800 fps minimum and LRX down to 1600 fps. Personally, I keep impact velocity > 2200 fps and never had any issues.

I did some testing with reloads. Not entirely perfect but best I could do. 1800-2000 fps minimal opening and not more than the diameter of the bullet. 2000-2200 fps some opened perfect others less than diameter of bullet. > 2200 fps all opened perfectly. Sample: Barnes 150 grain TTSX.

Nathan Foster (Terminal Ballistics), regarding monos, recommends > 2400 fps with monos. 2200-2400 fps he recommended high shoulder shots to quickly anchor game. Below 2200 fps he states delayed killing occurs.
Obviously with perfect shot though major vessels (Aorta, Vena Cava, Etc), will kill well below 2000 fps.

FWIW

 

[ResearchinStuff]

This is an antelope with thin skin shot with a 110gr ttsx from a 270. Muzzle velocity 3300fps, impact 2805fps. Shot at around 200 yards. They do the same thing with thick skinned wild pigs.

View attachment 620241

that's a good looking wound. much, much better than what i observed.

 

[JFK]

An exit on a blacktail I shot this season. Barnes LRX 129gr. 2950fps muzzle velocity. 2515fps impact velocity at 232 yards.