Help Setting Up Elk Hunting Arrows

[5MilesBack]

There's no way he's getting those Kinetic 200's anywhere near 300fps......at least at 70lbs.

 

[he_lives]

I figured I'd report back and give some results in case anyone was curious. It took me about a week to get the components in and I built the arrows yesterday. I ended up going with the HIT inserts last minute since they seem to be a bit stronger than the accutough outserts...here's the build specs:

Arrows: Gold Tip Kinetic XT 200 cut to 30.625" carbon to carbon and squared on both ends
Nocks: Easton A nocks
Inserts: Easton HIT aluminum
Vanes: Gold Tip 2" Raptor Vanes (came factory installed)
Field Tips: 125 grain

Again, I'm shooting a PSE Freak SP with a 31" draw at 70-lbs and WB rest.

We're getting snow still so I didn't get to shoot much and my bow is far from being tuned, but got the following results:

Arrows w/ ballistic collar - 540 grains - 272 FPS - 11.75% FOC - 88.7 ft-lbs KE
Arrows w/o balistic collar - 524 grans - 276 FPS - 10.73% FOC - 88.7 ft-lbs KE

I also have a dozen PSE Sniper 300 arrows (I've seen comments suggesting these are rebranded Gold Tips?) that I bought to use as practice arrows while I was setting my bow up. For comparison I cut these to the same length - 431 grains - 302 fps - 12.2% FOC - 87.3 ft-lbs KE.

I'll have to work on getting the bow tuned, but after shooting a couple groups at 20 yards the Kinetics with ballistic collars were grouping very well. I've got a fletching jig and 125-grain wac'em broadheads ordered and plan to experiment with helical fletching to get those dialed in.

Thanks for all the help getting started!

 

[doverpack12]

Looks like everything worked out about right. Either setup with collars or without will be great. Pick what shoots best.

 

[307]

If you shoot known distance 3d, you won't be at a disadvantage when shooting your hunting arrow.

 

[dreamingbig]

I am in a similar search and found pretty much the same. FOC changes but kinetic energy has been pretty consistent. Is the extra FOC worth it for small sacrifice in speed? This is the question I find myself trying to answer. I have found that 6 to 7 FPS at my draw length (27.5") and weight (70lb) is 2" at 30 yards (point of impact).


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[Beendare]

.... I have found that 6 to 7 FPS at my draw length (27.5") and weight (70lb) is 2" at 30 yards (point of impact).

That doesn't seem right. My guess is you are shooting the heavier arrow with your sight set for the light arrow. This isn't a good way to judge trajectory- IMO-as its not overlaying trajectory curve....the 2 will never cross.

Best method; Try setting your sight for the heavier arrow...then shooting to see how much higher the lighter arrow shoots....you will find its much less of a difference than you think at bowhunting distances.

 

[dreamingbig]

Not sure I follow. My sight is currently set for the 493 grn arrow at 260 fps. The 467 grn arrow which chronos at 267 groups about 2" higher and just a touch right. Some of diff could be dynamic spine. Total tip weight is lighter at 175 grn vs 200 grn on the 493 grn arrow.

3 2 arrow groups repeated the same results. I was actually shooting 4 arrows (2 of each) at the same time.

In pic below lighter arrow group is top group.


I apologize for the thread tangent.

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[he_lives]

I had a couple more questions and figured I may as well ask them here rather than starting a new thread. After building the arrows this past weekend, I shot a couple quick groups and thought the groups at 30-yards looked decent enough.




I then setup in the garage to work on paper tuning. I shot from about 6-7 feet and was consistently getting a high-left tear. I tried raising the whisker biscuit and lowering the knock point with no change at all. The cam timing looks to be about right and I used spray powder on the bow to ensure the arrow wasn't bouncing off the shelf. I even tried loosening the top limb a 1/4 turn at a time and could not get the high-left tear to change.




I then decided to start changing the nock orientation. Instead of having the cock vane vertical, I rotated it clockwise to this position:



With the vanes oriented this way, the arrow passed through the paper with much less tear. I know these aren't tuned perfectly, but I was encouraged to see some improvement. I was able to repeat shots like this multiple times in a row using the same arrow.



I'm wondering how I should proceed from here. Do you think I have an issue with the rest or other contact that I'm avoiding by orienting the vanes this way? Should I just start shooting all my arrows with this orientation? Should I shoot each arrow to fnd the best nock position then re-fletch these arrows with the nock position the same, but the cock vane vertical?

 

[doverpack12]

he_lives,

Try some other arrows. I'm guessing you just happened to pick an arrow that wasn't oriented with the spine of the shaft lined up with the cock vane and that was causing it to tear way out. Shoot every arrow through paper and find about the average tear then start turning nocks either like you did or all the way to the next fletch. Tune the bow to shoot perfect bullet holes and all of your arrows will be tuned at the same time. One thing you don't want to do when turning the nock is orient the arrow so a vane is passing through the black bottom whiskers of the rest. They are stiffer and will cause differences in tears and are not meant to be shot through.

 

[5MilesBack]

That green vane was/is definitely hitting something. With a WB you will always have vane contact. Do they work for most hunting type shots? Sure. But if ultimate accuracy and consistency is your goal I'd get away from the WB. Any little bit of nock travel will over-exemplify that contact as well. And shooting a fixed BH will also do the same.

 

[he_lives]

he_lives,

Try some other arrows. I'm guessing you just happened to pick an arrow that wasn't oriented with the spine of the shaft lined up with the cock vane and that was causing it to tear way out. Shoot every arrow through paper and find about the average tear then start turning nocks either like you did or all the way to the next fletch. Tune the bow to shoot perfect bullet holes and all of your arrows will be tuned at the same time. One thing you don't want to do when turning the nock is orient the arrow so a vane is passing through the black bottom whiskers of the rest. They are stiffer and will cause differences in tears and are not meant to be shot through.

Thanks, I'll be sure to go through the entire dozen I made up and turn the nocks until i'm getting a perfect tear. I did shoot 3 or 4 arrows and got a very similar tear from each shot.

I'm planning on refletching these arrows with a helical fletch at some point. Once I get the nocks rotated to the optimum position would you recommend re-fletching with the cock vane oriented back to vertical? Or will doing this take me back to square one on the tuning?

 

[he_lives]

That green vane was/is definitely hitting something. With a WB you will always have vane contact. Do they work for most hunting type shots? Sure. But if ultimate accuracy and consistency is your goal I'd get away from the WB. Any little bit of nock travel will over-exemplify that contact as well. And shooting a fixed BH will also do the same.

I noticed the same thing about the green vane showing some wear and black smudging. I can't say for sure, but I believe it was hit or rubbed against by another arrow when shooting some groups. I'll keep an eye on the vanes of all my arrows to see if any more wear develops from the WB or contact elsewhere. I did spray the bow with powder and didnt see any contact after a couple shots. It's possible that the vanes are hitting the aluminum frame of the WB though?

Regarding the WB, I know that it doesn't necessarily provide optimum accuracy, but at this stage I'm more comfortable with the idea of it for hunting. If I can't seem to get the paper tuning to work out, or if I convince myself that my groups are suffering from the WB I'll try something new.

Since you are shooting the same bow with the same shafts (i know your draw length is a bit longer), did you have much issue getting your arrows to paper tune?

 

[5MilesBack]

Since you are shooting the same bow with the same shafts (i know your draw length is a bit longer), did you have much issue getting your arrows to paper tune?

I don't paper tune. With this bow I started with a broadhead tune out to 60 yards which seemed to work really well. Then last year I decided to bare shaft tune it. Got it perfect with bare shafts, even had four bare shaft arrows touching at 20 yards with a fletched arrow. It shot horribly for 3D last year, lowest scores I've ever had. Couldn't figure it out. BH tuned last summer for hunting and BH's were 12" right of FP's at 60 yards. Did another BH tune, and it's shooting great again.

 

[Beendare]

helives,
It looks to me like you are getting close with your tuning. There are other ways to tune as 5Miles mentioned but in your case with the WB rest, I think paper tuning is the way to go as you need to know if you are getting extra contact...bare shaft doesn't tell you that. Contact is probably what is messing you up....you might want to try low profile longer vane with the WB rest.

FYI, when tuning....even moving your rest 1/32" can make a difference. Make small adjustments when tuning. A lot of guys set their rest at center shot and then yoke tune for those very small increments. I paper tune with FP's as its fast and easy...then BH tune....which is never more than 1/16" off of my paper tune.

As to arrow weight, I doubt you would discern a POA variation with the 16gr difference you have....its insignificant. ...and at about 270 fps those arrows are at a good speed/weight ratio.

 

[MDC]

AAE Max Impact!

SMS, I had the same problem when I used the Easton epoxy, but have been running Easton brass inserts in my GT Kinetic Kaos for a year now with no issues. The trick: run a brass .22 cal wire brush through the front of the shaft to rough it up a bit. Then I use AAE Max Impact Insert Glue to glue them in. Use the green insert tool that comes with the inserts to put them in at the right distance, but DO IT QUICKLY, as the set time is rather short. This stuff is awesome! I haven't had a single one come loose. In fact, I undershot and hit the edge of my concrete floor when shooting for the first time at 80 yds and broke the arrow. The arrow broke, but the insert was still sticking to the shards of carbon!

 

[Northernpiker]

As someone stated, with fixed broadheads get a helical fletch, it helps stabilize your arrow, factory vanes are almost always straight.

 

[5MilesBack]

The helical will definitely drive him away from that WB rest, but even offset will cause more issues. I know you want to use the WB, but it's hard to get perfect or even good flight with fixed BH's with straight vanes.

 

[he_lives]

Well I spent a bit more time with a half dozen arrows and could only seem to get that one arrow to paper tune. I agree that there does seem to be contact with the WB and arrow vanes, but using spray powder on the frame and edges of the WB doesn't indicate any contact. Turn the cock vane so it was about 30-degree off vertical seemed to give the best results, but also caused contact with my chin which I'd like to avoid.

I decided to take the advice and ordered a QAD Hdx rest last night. I have some new raptor vanes and plan to redo all the arrows with a helical fletch.

I'll post my results once the rest comes in and I get a chance to do some more tuning.

 

[Northernpiker]

Try different grips holding the bow, if your relaxing your grip make sure you're not grabbing it when you release.