Handgun hard cast penetration?

[Teaman1]

The last week or so I’ve been stuck on trying to pick a bear grizzly defense sidearm ( usually have rifle in hand and carry bear spray depending on situation)
I’ve been looking anywhere I can think and I cannot find any definitive testing for possible cartridges. I’m mostly stuck between 41 mag, 44mag and 45 colt but occasionally considering 10mm.
Does anyone have access to a chart or compared testings of these rounds with hard casts at different velocities and bullet weights?

 

[go4thegusto]

I have messed with this for years, mainly because I get a kick out of it. My take is if the pistol is too heavy it will end up staying in camp. That said I owned the Smith 329 Airweight. With heavy loads I did not think I could get back on target. That thing is no fun to shoot with bear loads. I sold it.

I have shot CorBon Penetrators, Garrett HammerHeads, Grizzly hard cast and Punch loads as well as a few others. I shot them in to 3/8 and 1/4 inch mild steel plate. The smaller diameter bullets penetrated best with 357 mag Punch loads going right through the plate.

Let's face it...no handgun will knock a bear off its feet. What is needed is penetration. After too much thinking, testing, and gun trading here is my take if you are starting from scratch:

1. Get a quality revolver in 357 Mag and buy Grizzly Punch loads (bullets machined from brass). 8 shot Smith is intriguing as is the 3 inch Kimber but many good ones from Ruger and Smith.
2. XD 10MM with Double tap hard cast if more total rounds intrigues you and you prefer an auto

My take.....

 

[Elk97]

I have a Ruger 357 and think I made a mistake in not going to a 44mag. I watched a Youtube comparing the two by shooting into ballistic gel and the 44 was almost twice the penetration of the 357. If you compare the kinetic energy of the two it's really a no brainer (for grizzlies anyway). I like the 357 and shoot it well, and it's lighter than a comparable 44, but i'm carrying it to kill a grizzly bear if necessary and I'm not confident that it would do that job nearly as well as a 44 (or larger).

 

[Ucsdryder]

If you’re going 357 you might as well go 10mm. Similar ballistics and a Glock 20/29 has more capacity and in my opinion is much more shooter friendly. I don’t hunt grizzly country, but I carry a g29 with aftermarket extended barrel for increased FPS and the ability to stabilize heavy hard cast bullets. I really like it and it rarely gets left in camp. It attaches to my Kifaru belt so it distributes the weight and I can’t barely tell the difference when I’m carrying it. A long time ago I decided that gun was a tool and not a safe queen. It gets beat up pretty good carrying it in the woods and it seems to be the first thing to hit the dirt when I take off my pack. Oh well, it keeps kicking.

 

[Wrench]

I've sent a 250gr ass to teakettle through a whitetail from a 45lc. I've killed a bear with a 10mm and a whitetail with a 329pd.

I think the 329pd is the best for accuracy and reliability, it needs x frame grips to be remotely fun to shoot. I can't say how much penetration that one got because for all know it's still on its way. That was about 80 yards and a complete pass through.

The 10mm was an xtp that did about 16" of penetration beginning right between the eyes.

I'd choose what you want as far as platform and just run with it. They're all fully capable of doing what you need.

The revolver will always go bang and has the greatest accuracy potential.

 

[Teaman1]

Really like hearing about real world experiences. I tend to over think things until I actually make a purchase. I initially wanted the 41 in a redhawk then wanted a 44 mag after looking at randy Garrett’s website. I saw he had a 310 grain at just over 1,000 FPS which is similar in energy to Underwood’s 10mm 220 grain hard cast. I believe in the importance of follow up shots but I just can’t find any real world comparisons with loads like that.

 

[Teaman1]

I’ve been carrying hsm 305 grain bear loads in a single action 44. I’m either upgrading to a double action revolver or a 10mm. Just trying to figure out the best option for me

 

[Rich M]

I shot a 600-700# heiffer bull with a 357 mag and 158 gr A-frame bullet. Thru skull from front to back and about 10 inches into neck.

Have not done any hard cast experiments but shoot XTP and A-frame bullets for hunting. XTP is a deer dropper, A-frame is a penetrator and they run 50-75 yards with their lungs blown out. Never shot a deer with a cast bullet, so can't provide a comparison but I'd think it would be like the A-frame.

Start with what do you have that will work, then get some ammo that will do the job and run a few tests. The heavier non expanding ammo will penetrate deeper. See if you are comfortable with whatever you have after your tests.

Guy I know is from Alaska - he told me everyone carries a 44 mag up there.

 

[Wrench]

For bear defense it's a wash. Bears hearts beat like twice a week so it's a CNS shot to neutralize them....or expect to be in for a long wait for them to bleed out.

All of the guns you mentioned will do that. I personally carry a g23 most of the time because I shoot it better than the g20 and it's ALWAYS on my hip.

 

[Shraggs]

If I recall, buffalo bore on many of the product pages quote penetration data at least for hard cast and their outdoorsman line.

 

[Teaman1]

I’ll check out buffalo bore again for a chart or something. Just trying to figure out if there is much gain in a double action 44 with hot but not full house loads for repeat shots or if that 10mm would be much faster. I understand that there will be little time to even react, let alone take multiple shots if you are surprised.

 

[Teaman1]

So maybe it’s 2-3 shots from heavy revolver verses 4-6 from 10mm? Is the difference in power enough to overturn that, because after all, cns hits or bone breaking is the goal here

 

[AK Troutbum]

I shot a brown bear once at about 12-15 yards with my S&W .500, using 440gr. Buffalo Bore hard cast bullets and the results were pretty impressive. He was facing me and had just lowered his head, starting to come in, when I shot. I missed my target (his head), and hit him in the right neck/shoulder area. The bullet traveled the length of his body and exited his right hip, just to the right of the base of his tail. The impact knocked him back several feet and onto his butt, and left a pretty large hole where the bullet exited. To say it was an attitude adjustment would be an understatement.


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[Teaman1]

That is impressive

 

[SteveCNJ]

https://www.ammoland.com/2018/02/de...s-rate-37-incidents-by-caliber/#axzz5l1jMrkL2


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[Downeaster]

Like others have said, 329pd (double action) is no fun to shoot with real 44 CBs on board. Upside is its light, accurate an in my guides choice it goes unnoticed. Next in the revolver class (single action) is the bisley blackhawk in 45LC. Upside is monster loads are just eaten up by that grip and weight. A pleasure to shoot but not so nice to carry though especially since a regular blackhawk holster from diamond d doesnt accomodate the big front sight mine wears. On the hip she goes...booo.
Now we come to the last and what rides the range with me most every day im out at this time...G20 with an RMR in a kenai gf rig. Had a smallish bear get in waaay too close and get waaay too aggressive. It rode my tag home even though i wasnt thrilled about it. Not having to count shots in the ensuing rodeo was a real asset. I thought i was perfectly calm but when i dropped out the mag to count after the initial encounter...my hand flapped like a birds wing while trying to find its home again. I dont wanna try reloading a revolver under that stress for sure.
Long winded and not exactly to your original question but hopefully it helps.

 

[Teaman1]

I think I’m just going to buy a chest holster and a Ruger Redhawk 44 mag with a 5.5” barrel and mess with some Garrett hammerheads. I got the chance to handle one the other day and it felt good in my hands. I’m just going to practice getting as fast and accurate as I can with the double action.

 

[jhm2023]

I carried hardcast and Corbon penetrators for years without ever having to use them. One day I got to thinking, "Wouldn't I want better energy transfer to stop the bear quicker?" A few days later I entertained the idea and developed a load for my 454 casull using 300gr. Swift a-frames (the hollowpoint revolver variety). As luck would have it a couple weeks later I was charged by a 7.5' boar that was tending a sow. The 10 yard shot entered the front of the left shoulder and exited the right hip. He folded up instantly and never got back up, lucky me. This was my only experience with pistol performance on a large bear but it's safe to say I no longer set my tent in the hardcast camp. I should add that I also load Lehigh xtreme penetrators these days because they are the middle ground between a hardcast type bullet and expanding and stepped down to a 460 Rowland for several reasons. I'll be trying to test that combo out this spring, hopefully not on a charging animal.

 

[Teaman1]

I’ve always wondered about the a-frames from a magnum revolver

 

[Rich M]

https://www.ammoland.com/2018/02/de...s-rate-37-incidents-by-caliber/#axzz5l1jMrkL2
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That's a good read and the results speak for themselves - The 9mms surprise me a little, but did the job just fine. Better than nothing seems to be just fine.

I mentioned A-frames for 357 mag - the expansion does not have any real knock-down power as compared to the XTP hollow points, but they will drill thru any deer bones in front of them. I wouldn't hesitate to shoot a moose with a 357 mag and A-frames - would expect to see an entrance and an exit hole.

Last comment for me on this thread - get what satisfies your mind - If you have confidence in a gun and practice with it til it is automatic/instinctive, you'll be in a better situation than having a bigger gun you are not comfortable carrying or using.