Group Tuning a Hunting Bow

[nphunter]

I'm getting ready to group tune my bow, I've never done it but have always gotten good groups. I just replaced my strings and bare shaft tuned through paper for the first time. My bow ended up nock level, normally I have always set it nock high and just shot bare shafts with fletched at a distance. My current arrows which have grouped great in the past have been having a lot of high-low misses on what have felt like decent shots. I'm going to try to group tune and see if I can bring them together.

I've been able to find very little information about group tuning and what I have found has been from tournament archers, just curious if anyone on here does this with their hunting setup. The concept seems sound and like it would defiantly benefit a hunter as well unless you have to make some major adjustments and get things way out of whack.

Interested in some feedback on this, I'll post some results after and see if I can eliminate my high-low variant.

Current results, i shot 10 ends with very similar results. The green and blue arrows and white are the same arrows, different fletch. Disregard the red/yellow FMJ’s.

 

[Marble]

For me, proper peep size can help ensure I do not fall out of the peep at a longer distance or when holding for an extended amount of time.

Also, a common thing I see is guys letting their arrow creep forward slightly while holding. This will cause vertical stringing.

I group tune by putting a pie plate on my target. Each arrow is numbered, and I record its spot on the target. After enough groups, a pattern will emerge, and you can take the one arrow and turn the nock. If it still is goofy after that, I'll check vanes and indirect the arrow for straightness and damage.

Every once in a while, I'll have an arrow that's just a lemon. I'll make that my squirl arrow.

Sent from my SM-S918U using Tapatalk

 

[Billy Goat]

I wouldn't be so concerned with group tuning a hunting bow.


Group tuning is frequently taking a bow slightly out of what would be bareshaft tuned to fit your shooting form a little better.



Hold an arrow in your palm, point to palm. Hold it straight up, let it go. Arrow will likely fall in different directions every time you let go of it. Give it a little bit of bias, it will fall the exact same way every time.


I feel that group tuning does just this. It finds the spot in your follow-through that your arrows come off the bow exactly the same each time.


One thing I know for certain, a group tuned bow will usually not group bareshaft and fletched perfectly.


Now arrows group tuned, that's a different thing achieved by nock tuning.

 

[MattB]

Group tuning in my experience is a process to find the best possible tune to consistently group field points and essentially de-tunes a bow from what would be optimal for fixed blade broadhead. Goos is your goal is to shoot hay bales with field points, not so much for shooting animals with broadheads.

 

[nphunter]

I wouldn't be so concerned with group tuning a hunting bow.


Group tuning is frequently taking a bow slightly out of what would be bareshaft tuned to fit your shooting form a little better.



Hold an arrow in your palm, point to palm. Hold it straight up, let it go. Arrow will likely fall in different directions every time you let go of it. Give it a little bit of bias, it will fall the exact same way every time.


I feel that group tuning does just this. It finds the spot in your follow-through that your arrows come off the bow exactly the same each time.


One thing I know for certain, a group tuned bow will usually not group bareshaft and fletched perfectly.


Now arrows group tuned, that's a different thing achieved by nock tuning.

I understand the concept, I’m just not sure how it equates for hunting. It seems like having an arrow do the exact same or very similar thing every time would be better than shooting just like field points.

What I’m saying is if I can shoot a 6” group at 60 consistently with broadheads and FP or make my system more forgiving and have broadheads not hit identical to FP but shoot a group half the size I’d take the smaller group any day as long as it’s more consistent.

In my head it seems like group tuning for forgiveness would be more important with a broadhead since they are so much easier to manipulate with form flaws than a FP.

I just went out and made a couple of small downward adjustments with my arrow rest a boom!! Huge improvement in my high low error. I haven’t put a square on it but I’m guessing it’s barely nock high now, you cannot see with your eye that it is nock high, it still looks perfectly perpendicular to the string. I’m going to continue to shoot and make adjustments and see how forgiving it can be.

 

[Billy Goat]

I understand the concept, I’m just not sure how it equates for hunting. It seems like having an arrow do the exact same or very similar thing every time would be better than shooting just like field points.

What I’m saying is if I can shoot a 6” group at 60 consistently with broadheads and FP or make my system more forgiving and have broadheads not hit identical to FP but shoot a group half the size I’d take the smaller group any day as long as it’s more consistent.

In my head it seems like group tuning for forgiveness would be more important with a broadhead since they are so much easier to manipulate with form flaws than a FP.

I just went out and made a couple of small downward adjustments with my arrow rest a boom!! Huge improvement in my high low error. I haven’t put a square on it but I’m guessing it’s barely nock high now, you cannot see with your eye that it is nock high, it still looks perfectly perpendicular to the string. I’m going to continue to shoot and make adjustments and see how forgiving it can be.

View attachment 554923

Arrows react differently with broadheads on the front. It might be you find a spot that it does tighten both groups, it might be you don't pull it out of tune enough to matter, but I think you will be lucky if that's the case. I'll take the straighter flying broadhead arrow, because if that broadhead isn't flying perfectly straight off the bow, it will end up being less forgiving, and sucks energy out of it going down range.


I think group tuning your arrows is important, or rather can make a big difference with broadheads.
Try shooting your arrows to a line, both a vertical and a horizontal one. If one is consistently not hitting that line, rotate the nock a little. It takes a while, but when you have your shafts numbered, you can pick out the ones that don't play nice with the rest of them, a little turn of the nock will normally bring them right into the line with everyone else. I cheat, I use a shooting machine and just rotate the nock til they shoot same hole, and with 3 fletch, one of those 3 positions will almost always get it there.

 

[nphunter]

Arrows react differently with broadheads on the front. It might be you find a spot that it does tighten both groups, it might be you don't pull it out of tune enough to matter, but I think you will be lucky if that's the case. I'll take the straighter flying broadhead arrow, because if that broadhead isn't flying perfectly straight off the bow, it will end up being less forgiving, and sucks energy out of it going down range.


I think group tuning your arrows is important, or rather can make a big difference with broadheads.
Try shooting your arrows to a line, both a vertical and a horizontal one. If one is consistently not hitting that line, rotate the nock a little. It takes a while, but when you have your shafts numbered, you can pick out the ones that don't play nice with the rest of them, a little turn of the nock will normally bring them right into the line with everyone else. I cheat, I use a shooting machine and just rotate the nock til they shoot same hole, and with 3 fletch, one of those 3 positions will almost always get it there.

I understand that a broadhead makes the arrow react differently, but I still feel like having a slight tail high or whatever is the most forgiving would also make a broadhead leave the bow exactly the same each time which would end up making them more accurate.

If I torque my bow that effect is magnified on a fixed broadhead, so in the example of group tuning if I am making my bow more forgiving to torque it seems like a win. If I have more grip pressure because my adrenaline is going which causes either a tail-high or tail-low reaction the broadhead is going to hit either low or high. If I put a slight tail high into my shaft, (which I've always historically done prior to bare shafting through paper) then my arrow should leave slightly low, maybe low enough that a BS or BH hits slightly low.

Even if that is the case it's going to be the same every single time, maybe I need to slightly move my sight by a yard at 60 but my BH should group much better than if they are leaving high and low more often. After all when hunting people have steep terrain, poor weather, unlevel footing, adrenaline causing overdrawing into the wall, nerves and rushed shots, IMO all of these things cause form inconsistencies and could be improved by group tuning the bow/rest.

As far as efficiency in flight, I would take a slightly less efficient arrow hitting an animal through both lungs than a more efficient arrow hitting them in the shoulder or guts all because I care more about a broadhead hitting with a fletched arrow than if my broadheads are grouping the best they can down range.

It seems like over the last 10 years we went from more traditional tuning, paper, french and group tuning, to nowadays everyone is talking about shooting bare shaft bullet holes through paper. I guess my thought is that we don't hunt with bare shafts so who really cares how they shoot through paper? After my new strings, I tuned a bare shaft through paper for the first time ever and my bow grouped worse than before and worse than any of my last 3 bows. As soon as I took it back to my more traditional tune which put a slight tail high in the arrow I am getting amazing grouping again.

I'm not trying to argue this, only to write down my thoughts and share what I learned. Maybe the best method would be to group tune with broadheads and once you find the spot they group the very best then call it good and not worry about any of the rest of it?

 

[Billy Goat]

I understand that a broadhead makes the arrow react differently, but I still feel like having a slight tail high or whatever is the most forgiving would also make a broadhead leave the bow exactly the same each time which would end up making them more accurate.

If I torque my bow that effect is magnified on a fixed broadhead, so in the example of group tuning if I am making my bow more forgiving to torque it seems like a win. If I have more grip pressure because my adrenaline is going which causes either a tail-high or tail-low reaction the broadhead is going to hit either low or high. If I put a slight tail high into my shaft, (which I've always historically done prior to bare shafting through paper) then my arrow should leave slightly low, maybe low enough that a BS or BH hits slightly low.

Even if that is the case it's going to be the same every single time, maybe I need to slightly move my sight by a yard at 60 but my BH should group much better than if they are leaving high and low more often. After all when hunting people have steep terrain, poor weather, unlevel footing, adrenaline causing overdrawing into the wall, nerves and rushed shots, IMO all of these things cause form inconsistencies and could be improved by group tuning the bow/rest.

As far as efficiency in flight, I would take a slightly less efficient arrow hitting an animal through both lungs than a more efficient arrow hitting them in the shoulder or guts all because I care more about a broadhead hitting with a fletched arrow than if my broadheads are grouping the best they can down range.

It seems like over the last 10 years we went from more traditional tuning, paper, french and group tuning, to nowadays everyone is talking about shooting bare shaft bullet holes through paper. I guess my thought is that we don't hunt with bare shafts so who really cares how they shoot through paper? After my new strings, I tuned a bare shaft through paper for the first time ever and my bow grouped worse than before and worse than any of my last 3 bows. As soon as I took it back to my more traditional tune which put a slight tail high in the arrow I am getting amazing grouping again.

I'm not trying to argue this, only to write down my thoughts and share what I learned. Maybe the best method would be to group tune with broadheads and once you find the spot they group the very best then call it good and not worry about any of the rest of it?

I don't shoot thru paper, my bareshaft tuning is shooting bareshaft and comparing to a fletched same as you would do with a broadhead.

I'm not saying you are wrong with your thoughts, I think you should see if you find broadheads to be very forgiving or not after you group tune your bow. For me, I find my hunting setup to work best when I first torque tune, then bareshaft, followed by checking with broadheads.


I'm not taking your post as being arguementive, you are trying to understand some how and why. And your line of thinking might be what works best for you. I like perfectly straight arrow flight, once you get external variables it cam change enough as it is. Just play with it in the wind, gripping it L/R, adding and removing heel pressure, see what is working best.

 

[Billy Goat]

If leaving the bow tail high, and using a 3 blade head, the orientation of your blades is likely going to matter, even more so if using a 2 blade.

 

[Beendare]

Billy Goat nailed it

The only guys I knew of that group tuned were Vegas shooters like Dwayne Martin (20y FP’s)

It sure worked for him
Edit; But Dewayne and everyone else I know wouldn't detune a hunt arrow...they all shoot BH's and FP's for group tune at long range.

 

[nphunter]

I don't shoot thru paper, my bareshaft tuning is shooting bareshaft and comparing to a fletched same as you would do with a broadhead.

I'm not saying you are wrong with your thoughts, I think you should see if you find broadheads to be very forgiving or not after you group tune your bow. For me, I find my hunting setup to work best when I first torque tune, then bareshaft, followed by checking with broadheads.


I'm not taking your post as being arguementive, you are trying to understand some how and why. And your line of thinking might be what works best for you. I like perfectly straight arrow flight, once you get external variables it cam change enough as it is. Just play with it in the wind, gripping it L/R, adding and removing heel pressure, see what is working best.

When you say torque tuning are you referring to moving the rest forward and away from the riser? How do you do it with brand-specific rests that essentially lock onto the riser in one location, now with all the integrated stuff you only have a single mounting location. Move the sight? if so do you find the sweet spot and then buy a matching peep? I have always just bought a 3/16" peep and moved the sight to get perfect alignment.

 

[Billy Goat]

When you say torque tuning are you referring to moving the rest forward and away from the riser? How do you do it with brand-specific rests that essentially lock onto the riser in one location, now with all the integrated stuff you only have a single mounting location. Move the sight? if so do you find the sweet spot and then buy a matching peep? I have always just bought a 3/16" peep and moved the sight to get perfect alignment.

Yes, move rest in/out is how I do it. It's more effect than moving the sight, but both can work, and that's the issue with these integrated rests. I did find that my QAD wanted to be closer yo the riser, which the integrated gave me over tge MXT, but that was luck.

I shoot peeps that have replaceable apertures in them, so I can make them what I want, also my hunting bows have SH sights, so I use the rings also.

 

[N2TRKYS]

I use to wonder why y’all were having to replace string all the time. Now I know why. By the time y’all get done with all these different types of tunes, you’ve worn out your string and have to start all over.

 

[nphunter]

I use to wonder why y’all were having to replace string all the time. Now I know why. By the time y’all get done with all these different types of tunes, you’ve worn out your string and have to start all over.

Yep, tune the crap out of them and then carry them around by the strings all season.

 

[5MilesBack]

I use to wonder why y’all were having to replace string all the time. Now I know why. By the time y’all get done with all these different types of tunes, you’ve worn out your string and have to start all over.

I used to shoot ~3000 arrows a month throughout the summer so 12k plus arrows per year. That's half the fun......just shooting the bow, whether tuning or just shooting after it's tuned. I'll still shoot a lot through the summer these days, but not every day like I used to.

 

[Billy Goat]

I use to wonder why y’all were having to replace string all the time. Now I know why. By the time y’all get done with all these different types of tunes, you’ve worn out your string and have to start all over.

Strings are like barrels, wear items.

You replace them every so often. I have the date written in marker on my risers of last string swap, kinda like a tire rotation or oil change on the windshield.


Replacing a barrel, or wearing out a string is small price for learning your tool.

 

[nphunter]

Well I just went and shot a group of fixed broadheads at 60, kind of what I expected. The BH grouped excellent even though they were slightly off from FP. I expected slightly low but also they were left, fixed the left with a small adjustment and then moved the rest up about 25% of the way back toward a bullet hole from my group tune. Group opened up slightly but I’m also tired and sweaty, FP and BH are hitting together and still an OK group for 60.

I’ll do some more group testing, my results showed me that the group tuning defiantly tightened up BH groups as well. Honestly if I could get that result over and over I’d be happy to move my sight a couple clicks left.

Heads are cheap German Jagers, not sure how they normally group this is the first I’ve shot them, they are for my kids.


Finger is on the FP, 60yds


Cut vane,


After bringing them together, finger in BH, only shot 1 since they all flew the same and I don’t want to ruin an arrow.

 

[N2TRKYS]

Strings are like barrels, wear items.

You replace them every so often. I have the date written in marker on my risers of last string swap, kinda like a tire rotation or oil change on the windshield.


Replacing a barrel, or wearing out a string is small price for learning your tool.

I’ve never worn a barrel out. I usually keep a bow about 10 years and the strings might get changed once.


I just don’t shoot that much.

 

[Billy Goat]

Well I just went and shot a group of fixed broadheads at 60, kind of what I expected. The BH grouped excellent even though they were slightly off from FP. I expected slightly low but also they were left, fixed the left with a small adjustment and then moved the rest up about 25% of the way back toward a bullet hole from my group tune. Group opened up slightly but I’m also tired and sweaty, FP and BH are hitting together and still an OK group for 60.

I’ll do some more group testing, my results showed me that the group tuning defiantly tightened up BH groups as well. Honestly if I could get that result over and over I’d be happy to move my sight a couple clicks left.

Heads are cheap German Jagers, not sure how they normally group this is the first I’ve shot them, they are for my kids.
View attachment 555209

Finger is on the FP, 60yds
View attachment 555211

Cut vane,
View attachment 555212

After bringing them together, finger in BH, only shot 1 since they all flew the same and I don’t want to ruin an arrow.
View attachment 555213

Around what FPS?

I was thinking you were normally 290+.

 

[nphunter]

Around what FPS?

I was thinking you were normally 290+.

271fps