Get Better Mule Deer Hunting

[robby denning]

Beautiful pea shooter Robby!

got that beauty from Dustin Wittwer. His gun, we just thought the pic fit the topic perfectly

 

[robby denning]

Not specific to Utah, I’m a MT resident, but a subject that hits close to home.

@robby denning

I was a little surprised to hear your thoughts on rut hunting in Idaho. I’m all about opportunity, but it can definitely go too far. MT is a great example of that. General season tags that go until late November every year is devastating to buck populations. It’s getting to the point where 115” 3x3 are considered “nice shooters” by locals. A 140” 4x4 is called a “big deer” Not an exaggeration. Based on reactions I’ve seen from most hunters, even very experienced locals, they’ve seen maybe one or two 170 class bucks in the last 10-20 years.

I’ve been discussing how this could be addressed with buddies, and have often appealed to how Idaho does things with their season dates. In my mind, an October season allows for lots of opportunity without crushing buck numbers…Even if we allowed the first week or so of November. But the 10-25 is a straight blood bath for 2-3 year old deer every year…

I’ve wondered if we did a 4-5 week season Oct 1-31, or even Oct 1- Nov 5/7. Then had a random lottery for an extended season rut hunt. 25% of tag holders (or something along those lines). Keeps opportunity, protects the younger deer allowing for some quality, spreads out hunting pressure and still gives great odds of having a rut hunt and good chance at older deer for the average hunter.

As noted in the podcast, these long season dates like we have in MT really do spread out hunting pressure. It’s amazing to see how animals respond and change behavior as the season progresses, both for archery and rifle.

Based on the fact that this thread exists, maybe it’s not enough. Other states have been far more proactive than MT about mule deer management, and are still in the same boat…


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Hey Jake, do you mean you were surprised that I support rut hunting?

If that’s what you meant, let me clarify that rut hunting can mean a lot of things. There’s an early rut from late October into roughly 10th of November—-that’s what I’m talking about.

Then there’s peak rut hunting. It goes from then until late November, and is a totally totally different game there.

It has to be more restrictive, but the early part of the rut I don’t think they are as vulnerable and could sustain some pressure then, especially if there was a weapons restriction of some sort

Does that clarify it?

 

[Jake Larsen]

Hey Jake, do you mean you were surprised that I support rut hunting?

If that’s what you meant, let me clarify that rut hunting can mean a lot of things. There’s an early rut from late October into roughly 10th of November—-that’s what I’m talking about.

Then there’s peak rut hunting. It goes from then until late November, and is a totally totally different game there.

It has to be more restrictive, but the early part of the rut I don’t think they are as vulnerable and could sustain some pressure then, especially if there was a weapons restriction of some sort

Does that clarify it?

Yep that’s what I was referring to. I totally agree. It’s the 10th of November through the end of the month that’s a blood bath here in MT. Early Oct - early Nov would be a nice compromise of opportunity, spreading out pressure, and chances of seeing some early rut activity and catching some early winter storms.

In the broader context of the discussion - I’m in favor of cutting that part of our season. As you’ve said, once something goes away, it rarely comes back…which you typically seem to couch as a negative in the context of opportunity. In this case, it NEEDS to go away and never come back. At least in the totally unrestricted format we currently have.


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[robby denning]

Yep that’s what I was referring to. I totally agree. It’s the 10th of November through the end of the month that’s a blood bath here in MT. Early Oct - early Nov would be a nice compromise of opportunity, spreading out pressure, and chances of seeing some early rut activity and catching some early winter storms.

In the broader context of the discussion - I’m in favor of cutting that part of our season. As you’ve said, once something goes away, it rarely comes back…which you typically seem to couch as a negative in the context of opportunity. In this case, it NEEDS to go away and never come back. At least in the totally unrestricted format we currently have.


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understood,
an issue you might run up against with an early October opener is moving rut pressure onto your bulls at that time.

 

[Jake Larsen]

understood,
an issue you might run up against with an early October opener is moving rut pressure onto your bulls at that time.

Absolutely. I was talking about Gen deer season only. The bull elk would be very vulnerable in early Oct for rifle. I’ve killed several bulls with my bow from Oct 1-15. It’d change the dynamic completely to put rifle elk hunters in the field during that time. I don’t think the overlap of archery elk/rifle deer hunters would be a big problem. It’d further spread out pressure as well. Hunter’s would have to choose which species they’re pursuing on any given day during that timeframe. Is there any other state with something similar that you’re aware of?


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[robby denning]

Absolutely. I was talking about Gen deer season only. The bull elk would be very vulnerable in early Oct for rifle. I’ve killed several bulls with my bow from Oct 1-15. It’d change the dynamic completely to put rifle elk hunters in the field during that time. I don’t think the overlap of archery elk/rifle deer hunters would be a big problem. It’d further spread out pressure as well. Hunter’s would have to choose which species they’re pursuing on any given day during that timeframe. Is there any other state with something similar that you’re aware of?


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yes, but having watched different proposals come up (and die) over the years in various states, separating deer and elk seasons is always an obstacle. Many hunters want to use their days off to hunt to have a chance at whatever they see, deer or elk.

at least one Colorado proposal just died last year due to that issue. Some archers wanted an earlier deer season, but one (of a few) pushbacks were hunters wanting same dates for both species. @Jaden Bales do you remember the specifics on that?

 

[Jake Larsen]

yes, but having watched different proposals come up (and die) over the years in various states, separating deer and elk seasons is always an obstacle. Many hunters want to use their days off to hunt to have a chance at whatever they see, deer or elk.

at least one Colorado proposal just died last year due to that issue. Some archers wanted an earlier deer season, but one (of a few) pushbacks were hunters wanting same dates for both species. @Jaden Bales do you remember the specifics on that?

I guess that’s one way of thinking about “giving up opportunity” the offset season dates wouldn’t limit the number of days a person could pursue deer and elk, just two weeks of the overlap.


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[S.Clancy]

Just to add, MT is trying to address some of these issues as well...

Montana Season Setting Proposal

Opportunity for All

mtseasonproposal.blog

 

[BRTreedogs]

Montana well every state in the west really needs to separate Whitetail and Mule Deer buck hunting.
I say slaughter those invasive white tails. Multiple tags, long dates, knock um down so the mule deer can have the best habitat left.

 

[IdahoBeav]

Montana well every state in the west really needs to separate Whitetail and Mule Deer buck hunting.
I say slaughter those invasive white tails. Multiple tags, long dates, knock um down so the mule deer can have the best habitat left.

Idaho has a ton of extra opportunities for WT.

 

[Jaden Bales]

yes, but having watched different proposals come up (and die) over the years in various states, separating deer and elk seasons is always an obstacle. Many hunters want to use their days off to hunt to have a chance at whatever they see, deer or elk.

at least one Colorado proposal just died last year due to that issue. Some archers wanted an earlier deer season, but one (of a few) pushbacks were hunters wanting same dates for both species. @Jaden Bales do you remember the specifics on that?

Yeah I think there was a lot of pushback on it from folks who like two tags in their pocket at once, but the primary reason they didn't shift the season dates backwards for deer in Colorado was because the Commission felt like the deer were already hunted for enough days a year...then they approved the 1st rifle dates for deer so that was a head scratcher.

 

[CorbLand]

Wanted to add that GoHunt did a really good podcast regarding the Utah proposal. Trail was on the committee so you get a good feel for how the ideas came about and what was discussed.

 

[BRTreedogs]

Idaho has a ton of extra opportunities for WT.

The Idaho NR rat race is such a turn off for me I haven’t participated.

Usually I’m at work like an adult and don’t have time or patience for it.

Far as I’m concerned they mise well just actually institute it as a draw and quit the charade.

 

[IdahoBeav]

The Idaho NR rat race is such a turn off for me I haven’t participated.

Usually I’m at work like an adult and don’t have time or patience for it.

Far as I’m concerned they mise well just actually institute it as a draw and quit the charade.

I was more so referencing resident opportunities. Nonres isn't the same since it became unit specific.

With the same tag that I hunt mules on in Sep & Oct, I can kill a WT buck or doe with a rifle in Nov or bow in Dec.

 

[BRTreedogs]

I was more so referencing resident opportunities. Nonres isn't the same since it became unit specific.

With the same tag that I hunt mules on in Sep & Oct, I can kill a WT buck or doe with a rifle in Nov or bow in Dec.

Well I still think they should separate it, who wants to waste a mulie tags on invasive species?
They should allow how the Texas guys shoot hogs, bust into fields with a side by side with thermals and a machine gun.

Shoot 5 or 6 a night.

I really hate white tails. There just food imo

 

[robby denning]

..., bust into fields with a side by side with thermals and a machine gun.

Shoot 5 or 6 a night.

 

[IdahoBeav]

Well I still think they should separate it, who wants to waste a mulie tags on invasive species?

The mule hunting happens in Oct- pass on the small mule bucks and shoot a WT if you can't find a mature mule buck.

 

[Jaden Bales]

Not specific to Utah, I’m a MT resident, but a subject that hits close to home.

@robby denning

I was a little surprised to hear your thoughts on rut hunting in Idaho. I’m all about opportunity, but it can definitely go too far. MT is a great example of that. General season tags that go until late November every year is devastating to buck populations. It’s getting to the point where 115” 3x3 are considered “nice shooters” by locals. A 140” 4x4 is called a “big deer” Not an exaggeration. Based on reactions I’ve seen from most hunters, even very experienced locals, they’ve seen maybe one or two 170 class bucks in the last 10-20 years.

I’ve been discussing how this could be addressed with buddies, and have often appealed to how Idaho does things with their season dates. In my mind, an October season allows for lots of opportunity without crushing buck numbers…Even if we allowed the first week or so of November. But the 10-25 is a straight blood bath for 2-3 year old deer every year…

I’ve wondered if we did a 4-5 week season Oct 1-31, or even Oct 1- Nov 5/7. Then had a random lottery for an extended season rut hunt. 25% of tag holders (or something along those lines). Keeps opportunity, protects the younger deer allowing for some quality, spreads out hunting pressure and still gives great odds of having a rut hunt and good chance at older deer for the average hunter.

As noted in the podcast, these long season dates like we have in MT really do spread out hunting pressure. It’s amazing to see how animals respond and change behavior as the season progresses, both for archery and rifle.

Based on the fact that this thread exists, maybe it’s not enough. Other states have been far more proactive than MT about mule deer management, and are still in the same boat…


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One thing I think that's missed in this overall conversation, and the point of @robby denning suggesting some Nov. hunting would be good in Idaho, is that the average hunter sees relatively the same quality of bucks on a Montana General as they do in an Idaho or Wyoming General hunt (including like a G or H) UNLESS folks are putting in the work to scout before season and are well-versed in glassing.

Mule deer populations are always an age pyramid and there are always a ton more bucks in ages 1-3 than 4+, no matter if you hunt it to oblivion or not.

For General tags, I scout a bunch, so I enjoy good hunting in the areas I know there are mature bucks but in my community, the average hunter believes there are no bucks left in Wyoming, even though we have a 6-day rifle season (Oct. 15-20) with a 4-pt APR. Folks put miles on their boots or vehicles around outside of prime times and largely don't put their face to their optics.

To @robby denning 's point, I really wish we had a big longer season in some places in Wyoming right now, because vocal crummy hunters want to see more bucks, and there's a huge movement to go LQ even though where I live we have a short season and an APR.

The same happens in LQ areas. Folks who hunt LQ usually demand more tag further cuts even when there are 50 or less tags in the unit (area 90, 87 and 130 late are three that I scout/guide that come to mind in WY).

TLDR; unless mother nature plays nice with population recruitment, it really does not feel like you will ever satisfy the average hunter's perception of their experience, no matter if you're only hunting October, have a 4-pt APR, or go full LQ. And I think your final comment here sums it up nicely - the whole West is in the same boat no matter the management strategy.

 

[Jake Larsen]

Just to add, MT is trying to address some of these issues as well...

Montana Season Setting Proposal

Opportunity for All

mtseasonproposal.blog

Thanks for sharing. Had heard of this, but couldn’t find more information. Any idea who’s behind it, if they’re doing any sort of public meetings/comments ect?


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[BRTreedogs]

I mean, are we trying to save Mule Deer or not?