Full length bushing die questions.

[TheCoyote]

Ok I am 90% sure that I’m doing this wrong but there are 300 YouTube videos on this and none of them are quite the same.

Should the die be touching the shell holder or not?

Pull the “sizer ball” out or leave it in?

I’ve noticed that the shoulder (not the OAL) is getting longer by a few thousands and I think it’s that ball stretching the case on the way out.

What is with all the different size Redding shell holders? Do I need these?

How much of the neck should be sized with the bushing? Current setup only has about half of it getting bushed.

 

[T_Widdy]

Should the die be touching the shell holder or not?

Yes, the press handle should have a consistent cam over

Pull the “sizer ball” out or leave it in?

Depends on your bushing diameter, the point of a bushing die is to not overwork the brass by choosing a bushing close to the diameter you’re wanting for neck to bullet interference “Neck tension”. A expander does help get a more consistent inside diameter as not every single case has the exact same neck wall thickness.

I’ve noticed that the shoulder (not the OAL) is getting longer by a few thousands and I think it’s that ball stretching the case on the way out.

I would say its just the brass moving and your not sizing enough to bump the shoulder back

What is with all the different size Redding shell holders? Do I need these

They are for adjusting the amount of shoulder bump you desire

How much of the neck should be sized with the bushing? Current setup only has about half of it getting bushed.

Depends on what brand bushing you are using but most bushing dies will not size all the way to the neck. It also depends how far you have to top stop screw screwed in.

What cartridge, dies and bushing are you using?

 

[TheCoyote]

.300WM

Redding Type S Full Length sizing die

 

[T_Widdy]

.300WM

Redding Type S Full Length sizing die

O that’s a belted cartridge, I’m not sure on that.

Try pulling your expander and running the die down till the press handle cams over and measure your case again to see if its bumping the shoulder back

On the neck part, did you tighten the top screw down till it touched the bushing and then just barely back it off so the bushing will center?

 

[Truck24hr]

Do you need to bump the shoulders? If not, I just use the bushing for neck tension, and nothing else.

When they get hard to chamber, bump the shoulders.

Works for me

 

[wapitibob]

Yes, the die body should be touching the shell holder. That "cam over" will create a repeatable stroke distance. If the die produces too much shoulder bump with that cam over, use competition shell holders to get the desired bump. Those shell holders allow the case head to sit .001 deeper per holder, a total of .010" for the set.

The expander ball "may" pull the shoulder up but my experience is that it doesn't do it enough to really matter. It seemed to provide inconsistent neck dia results so I moved to a different process.

For a belted case, which I reload for, I have found my best results using a set of Redding Competition dies, and a Willis belted case collet die.

I use the Willis die to size the case body at the belt, and slightly above.
I then use the Redding neck bushing die to set neck dia (neck tension) with no expander or mandrel. I do this by stepping down with two neck bushings.
I then use the Redding body die to set shoulder bump and slightly size the case body at the body/shoulder jct (if that area it needs it). I do this as a last step so no other process could influence the bump. With the belted case, I want that belt to register on the chamber and the shoulder to be maybe .001 off the chamber shoulder. You can check the distance by running the case shoulder thru a WAX candle flame. The soot from the wax will blacken the case and you will see when it touches the chamber.

I have "cam over" on every die body that I use including the bullet seating die.

 

[satchamo]

I’m experiencing the exact issue on some 243 brass. It’s getting longer and Im making full contact with the die face.

My issue was my shell holder. I’m running Redding dies with a Lee shell holder and the Lee holder is too tall. I ordered the Redding competition set.

TLDR: match your shell holder to your die brand

 

[TheCoyote]

Ok thank you everyone this is good advice.

@T_Widdy thank you good advice. I tried this the shoulder definitely contacts the die well before the belt even makes it into the bottom.

@wapitibob This is brilliant! I was using dry erase marker! "You can check the distance by running the case shoulder thru a WAX candle flame. The soot from the wax will blacken the case and you will see when it touches the chamber."

If I have the shell holder cam over touching the base of the die it bumps the shoulder way too much. So buy the competition shell holders?

What I am hearing is that it is important to have the shell holder touch so that it is repeatable?
Because I can get a .002 shoulder bump on the case by turning the die out a little at a time. I will say it a bit of an art, a little too much pressure will push you off 5 thousands or so. It is really difficult to get is exact down to a thousandth's. If I have them contact and cam over it is dead nuts 0.001 every time?

I think that I'll just use the "sizer ball" on new brass with bent necks and then go outside diameter neck bushing after that.

Last question:
Does the shoulder smash out to the full chamber size every time you fire?
New Nosler Brass measured with comparator: 2.265"
Once fired: 2.273"
I bumped the shoulder down to 2.71"
After firing them again they still measure 2.71"

Im assuming that if it isn't high pressure load that maybe the case does nothing? I was shooting 1.5gr. under max load.

 

[wapitibob]

I use a 30 caliber expander ball that I turned down and use it like an expander mandrel and run through all of my case next as a first step in case any of them are bent, and it will push the next out to the same size as my fired brass neck so that everything Starts at the same position before I run up through the neck bushings. I’m reloading for a 7 mm STW.

 

[Castle Rock]

I’m experiencing the exact issue on some 243 brass. It’s getting longer and Im making full contact with the die face.

My issue was my shell holder. I’m running Redding dies with a Lee shell holder and the Lee holder is too tall. I ordered the Redding competition set.

TLDR: match your shell holder to your die brand

Maybe cancel that order if you still can
The standard shellholders are all the same height and the comp set are taller so won’t help you
You need more cam over on your press or take a swipe off the top of your shellholder

 

[satchamo]

Maybe cancel that order if you still can
The standard shellholders are all the same height and the comp set are taller so won’t help you
You need more cam over on your press or take a swipe off the top of your shellholder

Welp shit now I’m confused haha I’m gonna PM you so as not to derail OPs thread

 

[RagnCajn]

Ok thank you everyone this is good advice.

@T_Widdy thank you good advice. I tried this the shoulder definitely contacts the die well before the belt even makes it into the bottom.

@wapitibob This is brilliant! I was using dry erase marker! "You can check the distance by running the case shoulder thru a WAX candle flame. The soot from the wax will blacken the case and you will see when it touches the chamber."

If I have the shell holder cam over touching the base of the die it bumps the shoulder way too much. So buy the competition shell holders?

What I am hearing is that it is important to have the shell holder touch so that it is repeatable?
Because I can get a .002 shoulder bump on the case by turning the die out a little at a time. I will say it a bit of an art, a little too much pressure will push you off 5 thousands or so. It is really difficult to get is exact down to a thousandth's. If I have them contact and cam over it is dead nuts 0.001 every time?

I think that I'll just use the "sizer ball" on new brass with bent necks and then go outside diameter neck bushing after that.

Last question:
Does the shoulder smash out to the full chamber size every time you fire?
New Nosler Brass measured with comparator: 2.265"
Once fired: 2.273"
I bumped the shoulder down to 2.71"
After firing them again they still measure 2.71"

Im assuming that if it isn't high pressure load that maybe the case does nothing? I was shooting 1.5gr. under max load.

The difficulties of adjusting the die to get the exact shoulder bump back are the reason for the redding shellholder sets. They are progressively taller so you get the die close with the shortest one and go to taller shellholders that replicate lowering the shellholder but now its a known amount each time and you aren't guessing. They are handy but not completely necessary. Some sizing dies have micrometer adjustments to allow you to make 0.001" adjustments. I don't believe the shellholder has to touch to be repeatable. Never experienced it myself anyway.

The brass "should" fill the chamber dimensions each firing if using a normal pressure load like you had. Bumping the shoulder back 0.002"-0.005" should be fine for hunting/recreational use. Benchrest guys usually keep it 0.001"-0.0015". Don't go too much though or you will over work the case web and have premature brass failure. It is suprising you didn't see the case grow back to 2.273". Guessing the 2.71" is a typo and you meant 2.271". I might would try bumping them down to 2.268" or 2.269" and shooting again. You might have been off on your initial 2.273" measurement or maybe had something to do with the large initial stretch from the first firing.

 

[Harvey_NW]

Should the die be touching the shell holder or not?

Maybe, but most likely not without comp shellholders on that cartridge. You should be setting up your FL sizing die for .002-3" shoulder bump, measured with a headspace gauge at the shoulder datum. You can find that here. If you're just setting up your sizing die to "cam over" against a standard shellholder on a belted mag, you're likely smashing the shoulders back about .012" and will get case head separation after a couple firings. Ask me how I know..

Pull the “sizer ball” out or leave it in?

Personal preference, I polish it down a bit so the diameter is .0025-003" under bullet diameter because I prefer a bit more neck tension on hunting rounds being jostled around.

I’ve noticed that the shoulder (not the OAL) is getting longer by a few thousands and I think it’s that ball stretching the case on the way out.

It's likely not the ball pulling the shoulders, I've never been able to replicate that in any cartridge. It's more likely the die sizing the lower portion of the body first without contacting the shoulders yet, causing the case to grow in length. Continue screwing the die in and measuring shoulders after a pass until proper shoulder bump is achieved. I use a new piece each time during setup, then re-lube and resize the ones that didn't get sized down enough after the die is set.

What is with all the different size Redding shell holders? Do I need these?

IME, no. I don't have any issues consistently sizing pieces that a standard FL die doesn't touch the shellholder, as long as cases are properly lubed.

How much of the neck should be sized with the bushing? Current setup only has about half of it getting bushed.

Depends on the bushing, but most will size about 90+%. SAC bushings size a bit more than other brands. IMHO if it's not a wildcat, there is zero reason for bushing dies.