Frustrated - Ready to sell my Sh!t

[kloppy]

Listen to the above posts, especially those encouraging you to ditch the spot and stalk. I am not positive where the recent interest in spot and stalk came from, but I would guess its because Zach from THP has success doing it. Just because he can doesnt mean you can - or should. Sure, if it was your full-time job to hunt the midwest like he does then maybe you could try.

The point that I and others are trying to make is that you need to identify your expectations. There is no harder place to hunt whitetails than Appalachia. If your expectation is to kill a deer, then maybe join a club or lease as others have suggested. If it is to kill a deer on public, keep learning. As one person said, you gotta find the bedding in those habitats. Read some deer studies, especially those published by Penn State. Listen to podcasts, especially THP episode 118 w/ Nathan Killen. Hill country deer bedding is somewhat predictable, although more spread out. Key in on east facing slopes, top 1/3 of the ridge, in the thick stuff/mountain laurel. Think like a deer. Prevailing wind is typically NW, so in those spots, the deer have the wind to their back and are facing downhill. This allows them to smell behind them and see in front of them. Set up on exit routes along the sidehills. Easier said than done, but that seems to be the formula that is used to kill deer in Appalachia.

Hopefully the information you have been given in this thread will offer you some new motivation. Let us know how it goes. Its hard, but hunting because you truly love it is better than golfing because society tells you you're supposed to love it.

 

[Rich M]

Took me 7 yrs to shoot my first deer, a doe. 4 years later my first buck. It isn't always easy. I'm also deaf. Here I am another 31 years later, still at it. Hunter attitudes bug me, the deer can be figured out.

You need to decide if this is something you really want to do. Are you still, minding the thermals and the wind, do you know where they bed on the higher points and ridges or down in the swamps, have you tried game cameras to tell you if your in the right areas, etc?

If I were you and decided was gonna make it work. Wod consider hiring a guide to teach me a little or would get 3 trail cams and start using them to confirm or deny my assumptions.

 

[SMOKYMTN]

I am at the end of my rope with whitetail hunting... About ready to sell all my stuff and take up golf (which I hate).

I started hunting late in life (5 years ago). The last 3 years I have probably spent more time elk hunting (out West) but have spent a decent amount of time whitetail hunting here back east where I live (NC).

I scout.

I actually am very skilled at finding deer sign. Like this weekend, a game warden gave me some new access points to public land and on my first trip in, I find a spot where it was clear deer were feeding on acorns (there was glistening scat) and a runway where literally every 30 yards a scrape and rubs. Clearly some runway a nice buck was using.

I have done this "blind" in several parcels of public land. Even have found bear...

But I can't "see" any deer nor get any within shooting distance.

I try to manage my scent, and definitely manage the wind. Scent wise I have an ozone box I keep my clothes in and run it before I go out. I also spray down with scent killer before walking in the woods. Wind wise, I do my best but these big woods parcels often have swirling/changing winds.

I manage my noise. Granted it is nearly impossible to be quiet in these places, as there are deadfall, twigs, and dried leaves EVERYWHERE. So I step, stop; step, step, stop; make scraping noises... otherwise try not to sound like a human and more like an animal moving through the woods.

The public lands I hunt are east coast big woods. They are semi (small) mountainous. There are hardwoods, evergreens (southern pines, junipers and faux cedars). I hunt the edges of these, I hunt the topographic changes, I hunt the bottoms, hedge rows.... You name it. I still hunt and set up stands.

And I KNOW, that this time of the season is tough to kill a deer, but i have done this (gun and archery) for 3 seasons and just not having any luck.

Any ideas I am open to.

I live in the area you hunt and have hunted it my entire life. There’s an all too common saying in the mountains of WNC that goes like this: “90% of mountain bucks are killed by 10% of the hunters.”

Too many guys get frustrated here because they can identify the individual pieces but can’t put the puzzle together. Most of the times they’re chasing a ghost.

The best pieces of advice I can give you about mountain whitetail hunting is this:

1.) The overwhelming majority of sign is made at night. You have to find where they are during the day and it isn’t likely where the sign is.

2.) Thermals are crucial but a stiff breeze will overpower any thermal. Winds also swirl except at the ridge tops. Big bucks understand all of this which is why 90% of buck beds (daytime area) are found just below the top of the ridge. In the morning this allows him to smell from behind from the wind blowing over the top, yet also smell the thermal from below that is protected from the wind on the leeward side. This is why you can find multiple beds within a few hundred yards of each other on different sides of the same ridge. It gives him a place to be in all wind directions.

In the evenings the thermals sink which is why they’ll likely access their bed from slightly below. If you can nail down an access and set up in a spot where he won’t smell you using a thermal from above or below but an off wind won’t bust you from behind him, you’ll likely see him. Easier said than done but that’s how it’s done.

3.) Finding beds will always be the most important sign. A deer will never be more comfortable than in the place he lets down his guard to nap. That means that is the likely place he’ll be during daylight, etc.

4.) Big bucks are consistent up here. They don’t get big by being any other way. They all have the same habits and same tendencies and that’s by staying high and quiet, and always being in a place that’s advantageous to him to use his strongest senses. If you’re afraid of busting deer, you’ll never be in the game because you have to get close to the deer when hunting these thick jungles. Get your legs in shape and get high. Don’t be distracted by the sign in the valleys. Once you begin to see the places bucks inhabit, you won’t see mountain hunting any differently and you’ll begin to see it like the 10% do. It’s hard because it goes against everything flat land hunting is about but you’ll see progress. I promise you.

 

[stumpknocker]

I live in the area you hunt and have hunted it my entire life. There’s an all too common saying in the mountains of WNC that goes like this: “90% of mountain bucks are killed by 10% of the hunters.”

Too many guys get frustrated here because they can identify the individual pieces but can’t put the puzzle together. Most of the times they’re chasing a ghost.

The best pieces of advice I can give you about mountain whitetail hunting is this:

1.) The overwhelming majority of sign is made at night. You have to find where they are during the day and it isn’t likely where the sign is.

2.) Thermals are crucial but a stiff breeze will overpower any thermal. Winds also swirl except at the ridge tops. Big bucks understand all of this which is why 90% of buck beds (daytime area) are found just below the top of the ridge. In the morning this allows him to smell from behind from the wind blowing over the top, yet also smell the thermal from below that is protected from the wind on the leeward side. This is why you can find multiple beds within a few hundred yards of each other on different sides of the same ridge. It gives him a place to be in all wind directions.

In the evenings the thermals sink which is why they’ll likely access their bed from slightly below. If you can nail down an access and set up in a spot where he won’t smell you using a thermal from above or below but an off wind won’t bust you from behind him, you’ll likely see him. Easier said than done but that’s how it’s done.

3.) Finding beds will always be the most important sign. A deer will never be more comfortable than in the place he lets down his guard to nap. That means that is the likely place he’ll be during daylight, etc.

4.) Big bucks are consistent up here. They don’t get big by being any other way. They all have the same habits and same tendencies and that’s by staying high and quiet, and always being in a place that’s advantageous to him to use his strongest senses. If you’re afraid of busting deer, you’ll never be in the game because you have to get close to the deer when hunting these thick jungles. Get your legs in shape and get high. Don’t be distracted by the sign in the valleys. Once you begin to see the places bucks inhabit, you won’t see mountain hunting any differently and you’ll begin to see it like the 10% do. It’s hard because it goes against everything flat land hunting is about but you’ll see progress. I promise you.

Some real wisdom here. As a recent member to this forum I am continually impressed by the expertise and willingness to share.

Something to add:
As another avid hunter of the southern App's, topography, topography, topography. There are two times deer get stupid and topography can help. The first is the rut, of course, in which case you'd be silly NOT to sit on all that night sign in the valleys, or on the open hardwood ridgetops, or saddles or pinch points that concentrate movement (not sure this has been mentioned here). The second is once that temp drops and canopy opens and bedding areas tend to move from the north side of slopes to the south, especially on south running finger ridges or open hardwood slopes. This can be a VERY predictable pattern. And... that's all the free advice for now.

As far as spot-and-stalk goes, that term has continued to be misused. I'd like to know where people are able to glass whitetails to inform a stalk in the east. Am I missing something? Still hunting, on the other hand, is an extremely effective and efficient tactic under the right circumstances. Walk 5 yards, listen 20 seconds. Walk 5 yards, listen 20 seconds. It is an integral part of the hunting heritage of northern New England where I got started, and I've continued to walk southern App's for deer with even greater success. You WILL see more deer doing this, although you may get less shot opportunities. Walking the big woods will always be a stimulating and effective way to hunt whitetails and all the power to you if you prefer to stay seated. But don't claim it's ineffective. Maybe all the naysayers were brought up hunting small managed land parcels, or already know all they care to know about deer hunting.

 

[wildernessmaster]

Start running cameras to learn where they use in daylight. I hunt big woods too and I hunt and scout way harder for less results than I do when I travel. I try not to hunt until the rut unless I feel like I’m gonna kill something that day. I base that on historical knowledge from cameras and sightings, and current camera pictures.

I have cameras out... Actually I have cameras out on both my own farm and on some spots in public land. I am thinking game cameras are hogwash. I have spot lighted deer on my farm in a spot I have game cameras out for several nights - pointed exactly where I have seen them, and exactly where their fresh as hell tracks are - nothing.

Same thing on public land. I have cameras out on spots where there are very clear trails - some rather choke points and the only thing I see are coyotes.

Unless you are dead on a spot they frequent and its a very refined choke point cameras do very little for you IMHO.

Granted if you have those spots then they tell you what and when. But big woods are called "big" for a reason. Game cams are just not super helpful.

 

[wildernessmaster]

I would suggest you get a lease. I also live in NC and hunt both NC and SC. The public land here has too many darn people and we cannot hunt sundays. With a lease a working man doubles his season and can control the pressure. Another good option is to apply for some of the lottery hunts which i hear have very high success rates. Have you been seeing any does? By the way where you seeing those bears?

Getting a lease these days is worse than getting a public lands whitetail. All the nice size and wildlife parcels are all gobbled up by big hunting clubs. You can get some crappy small parcels, or ones that won't have much in them, but that is about it.

 

[KHNC]

Well i have a buddy in pittsboro. Kills some of the biggest NC deer ive ever seen. Year after year after year after year after year. Stand hunts exclusively. Some food plots, some corn piles , some big woods. You need to step up your game i guess. Thats one of the best areas in the whole state. I live in Henderson County. If you dont like Pittsboro, you dont want none of WNC deer hunting.

 

[wildernessmaster]

Maybe get your girlfriend to drive you around late at night spot lighting with good optics.

Why would I have to drive around, I have a good set of deer in my front 10 that I could spotlight and kill...

 

[wildernessmaster]

It sounds like you are hunting in western NC. That's a tough place to cut your teeth on whitetail. Low deer densities, big woods, little habitat diversity all make for a challenge. That being said, there are deer there and you can kill them. I spent a significant amount of time hunting the Pisgah National Forest back in the early 2000's. I was like you, I could find tons of fresh deer sign, yet never see a deer. Then, I finally figured out that the deer sign I was seeing was being made at night. You need to get tight to their bedding areas.

Don't let people discourage you on the spot and stalk aspect. It can be done here in NC. In fact, the big woods of the national forest actually play out nicely to spot and stalk. That's how I shot my first deer on Pisgah. I found a big ridge and spent an entire day just slowly working my way along that ridge. Take a few steps, stop and look and glass. Learn how to move through the woods like a deer or a squirrel. Deer are not overly concerned with noise they hear, especially if it's rustling/crunch leaves. They rely on their nose more than anything. Put the wind in your face and just ease along. Getting within bow range can definitely be a challenge, but if you are competent at 50 yds, you probably can get that close. I shot my first one from the ground with a muzzleloader at 60 yds.

I actually do a lot of spot an stalk hunting. I mostly hunt public land in NW NC now. It's very similar to Pisgah, lots of big woods. There is a little more habitat diversity and higher deer densities, so that helps. But my favorite thing to do is to go on "walkabout." I just grab my weapon of choice and spend the day easing through the woods. Honestly, I probably spook more deer than I see, but, as long as I have the wind in my face, the ones I spook usually just trot off and then will stop and try to figure out what the heck that weird thing is moving through the woods.

You are free to PM me with questions. And, if you are hunting Pisgah National Forest, I may be able to steer you the direction of some places I had success in the past. I no longer hunt those areas, and I will be honest, my intel is several years old, but it still may help.

Central NC... Not Western. We have ok deer densities and I have used the Game stats to hunt the parcels and areas that seem to have higher densities.

 

[wildernessmaster]

Well i have a buddy in pittsboro. Kills some of the biggest NC deer ive ever seen. Year after year after year after year after year. Stand hunts exclusively. Some food plots, some corn piles , some big woods. You need to step up your game i guess. Thats one of the best areas in the whole state. I live in Henderson County. If you dont like Pittsboro, you dont want none of WNC deer hunting.

Trust me man... I know they are here. But I would bet your buddy is hunting with a club on leased lands around Pittsboro. No real public lands around here.

 

[KHNC]

Trust me man... I know they are here. But I would bet your buddy is hunting with a club on leased lands around Pittsboro. No real public lands around here.

Well, you condemned leases in your previous post too.

 

[Newtosavage]

I have cameras out... Actually I have cameras out on both my own farm and on some spots in public land. I am thinking game cameras are hogwash.

They aren't hogwash. They are extremely useful tools. If you aren't getting deer on your game cameras, and you're not checking them too often ( a common mistake ) or using scent-control precautions when you do check them, then you need to keep scouting and put them in new areas.

If all this work isn't fun for you, then perhaps you've picked the wrong activity. I know at least for me, the scouting and figuring things out is more rewarding than the actual hunt. There have been seasons when I took a deer so early I was actually kinda disappointed because I no longer had a reason to scout.

If you don't enjoy the process, then maybe it's not for you. Because 95% of this, is process. Maybe 99%. So for every hour you have deer within range, expect to put in 95-99 hours of work and watching squirrels and birds.

For me personally, watching squirrels and birds from my stand or blind is still more interesting than whatever else I'd be doing.

 

[wildernessmaster]

They aren't hogwash. They are extremely useful tools. If you aren't getting deer on your game cameras, and you're not checking them too often ( a common mistake ) or using scent-control precautions when you do check them, then you need to keep scouting and put them in new areas.

If all this work isn't fun for you, then perhaps you've picked the wrong activity. I know at least for me, the scouting and figuring things out is more rewarding than the actual hunt. There have been seasons when I took a deer so early I was actually kinda disappointed because I no longer had a reason to scout.

If you don't enjoy the process, then maybe it's not for you. Because 95% of this, is process. Maybe 99%. So for every hour you have deer within range, expect to put in 95-99 hours of work and watching squirrels and birds.

For me personally, watching squirrels and birds from my stand or blind is still more interesting than whatever else I'd be doing.

Wow you woke up on the wrong side of the bed. I am going to forego my usual sarcasm with such a phallic cephalous response...

Maybe your not up to date... Aside from the people who sell and the people who pimp game cameras a lot of the "experts" out there are moving away from them. Exactly for some of the reasons you mention.

Game cameras are tools... Sometimes useful, sometimes completely nothing but another .25-.5 lbs of weight you are carrying around.

And I never said it wasn't fun buddy... I said I was frustrated, and I did so to spawn a discussion for myself AND OTHERS to maybe learn some good tips - not be the bully puppet of some online troll.

 

[wildernessmaster]

Well, you condemned leases in your previous post too.

Did I? I think I said that most of the decent leases were all gobbled up by big hunting clubs. I think I also said, right now I wanted to learn to hunt "au naturale" (i.e. public lands). Do I want to be in a big hunting club? Not really... Just like I don't do guided hunts out west - where most of them are walk to a captive animal shoot. I do enjoy the "hunting" aspect of it, otherwise I would not be frustrated.

 

[Newtosavage]

Wow you woke up on the wrong side of the bed. I am going to forego my usual sarcasm with such a phallic cephalous response...

Maybe your not up to date... Aside from the people who sell and the people who pimp game cameras a lot of the "experts" out there are moving away from them. Exactly for some of the reasons you mention.

Game cameras are tools... Sometimes useful, sometimes completely nothing but another .25-.5 lbs of weight you are carrying around.

And I never said it wasn't fun buddy... I said I was frustrated, and I did so to spawn a discussion for myself AND OTHERS to maybe learn some good tips - not be the bully puppet of some online troll.

Okay, I wish I had back the time I spent trying to be helpful.

You have made it clear that don't have the mindset required to do what you're trying to do, which is probably why you are frustrated. Maybe that will change someday. I hope for your sake it does.

Have a good day.

 

[KHNC]

Did I? I think I said that most of the decent leases were all gobbled up by big hunting clubs. I think I also said, right now I wanted to learn to hunt "au naturale" (i.e. public lands). Do I want to be in a big hunting club? Not really... Just like I don't do guided hunts out west - where most of them are walk to a captive animal shoot. I do enjoy the "hunting" aspect of it, otherwise I would not be frustrated.

CLearly you have no idea about guided hunts. I did guided hunts when i first started to learn about western hunts. I am DIY for many years now on most hunts. They are not walk to a captive animal to shoot.

 

[Billy Goat]

 

[Cedarsavage]

I have cameras out... Actually I have cameras out on both my own farm and on some spots in public land. I am thinking game cameras are hogwash. I have spot lighted deer on my farm in a spot I have game cameras out for several nights - pointed exactly where I have seen them, and exactly where their fresh as hell tracks are - nothing.

Same thing on public land. I have cameras out on spots where there are very clear trails - some rather choke points and the only thing I see are coyotes.

Unless you are dead on a spot they frequent and its a very refined choke point cameras do very little for you IMHO.

Granted if you have those spots then they tell you what and when. But big woods are called "big" for a reason. Game cams are just not super helpful.

A few years ago I was sitting a clearcut and saw 8 does. None of them walked past my camera on the maintrail. I've had a camera on a different scrapeline since 2017. In that time I learned if there's cold weather around this coming weekend I have bucks working it during daylight, then they kinda disappear til about 11/15, and travel thru there the end of the month. Then if there's snow deer file in during December and tend to be most active an hour after daylight. I don't waste time frustrating myself in that spot during dead times. Most spots in the bigwoods are flops, hot one year, dead the next. You just plain work way harder for lower results in the big woods. It's why I save my money and pack up and head out of state at least once a year. I killed a small buck on 11/15 last year, and I was curious how much killing a deer would affect the spot. 11/17 I had a different buck work the scrape. I just bought a fifth camera, I wish I had about 30. A few years with 30 cameras, and I feel like I might be starting to get a handle on it.

 

[stumpknocker]

:/ there are 1000 ways to kill a whitetail and it is dissapointing to hear those getting offended that OP won't do it "their way". Everyone has a different journey, and I'm sure many on here had mentors that guided them that maybe the OP did not.

You don't "need" cams. You don't "need" a lease. You don't "need" to learn the intricate habits of deer to be successful. You "can" try the tips given here and see if they work for you. You only need to see one, and that's the greatest thing about deer hunting, for me.

 

[SIontheHunt]

Getting a lease these days is worse than getting a public lands whitetail. All the nice size and wildlife parcels are all gobbled up by big hunting clubs. You can get some crappy small parcels, or ones that won't have much in them, but that is about it.

Getting a lease these days is worse than getting a public lands whitetail. All the nice size and wildlife parcels are all gobbled up by big hunting clubs. You can get some crappy small parcels, or ones that won't have much in them, but that is about it.

trust me I know where you are coming from. I worked my behind off trying to find a decent lease. I see where youre coming from saying you want to hunt "au naturale" as you put it but to me a lease is just the best way to get away from the crowds. To each their own though.