Fox/bobcat caliber & coyote capable

[scottprice]

Would you guys be comfortable using a 17wsm for fox (50/50 reds and greys), bobcat and coyote under 150 yards?

I currently have a savage m25 in 17 hornet with bull barrel and laminate stock and although incredibly accurate, I hate carrying it. It’s heavy as an anvil… I just picked up a savage bmag in 17wsm for $150 but haven’t even shot it yet. It’s WAY lighter than the M25 though …

So I’m torn between getting a lighter 17 Hornet (CZ?)…switching to the bmag in 17wsm… or getting a 22mag or 22 hornet if you guys can vouch for their effectiveness on those 3 species in my 150 yard max range

Obviously I’m concerned with fur here. The 20gr vmax in my 17 hornet I’m not overly thrilled with on the fox.

 

[Erict]

I'd be happy to help those who help themselves. Have you searched this forum for "WSM" yet?

 

[weekender7]

22 mag is going to be light for coyotes unless you opt for head shots. The 22 mag will kill a coyote shot in the lungs but how far is it going to run before it dies, leaving a very sparce blood trail at best. The fur on a coyote soaks up a fare amount of blood and 22 mag doesn't normally open a big hole. Don't ask me how I know this.

Most predator hunters agree that a gun big enough to anchor coyotes is going to be hard on the thin skinned fox.

 

[FLATHEAD]

I'd be using that Bmag in 17WSM.

 

[Mountainrancher]

A couple guys I know have 17 wsms and shoot coyotes with them pretty effectively. Although it’s for depredation/livestock purposes so they aren’t concerned about fur

 

[hobbes]

In my opinion, the 22 mag isn't a good coyote round unless you're shooting them close range head shots in a trap. I learned the hard way, a long time ago, with a coyote broadside at 30 yards. He collapsed at the shot and I moved on to focusing on a second before realizing that he was on his feet. I never found him and virtually no blood. I can only assume that the bullet did not penetrate the shoulder.

 

[Afhunter1]

I’d load the 17 hornet with 25gr hollow points. You will not have much fur sowing. V-Max is a varmint bullet not predator. I run a 17 rem with that bullet and have very few exits at 4000fps and I mainly shoot fox

 

[tuffcrk14]

The most ultimate fox/bobcat rifle setup I have ever witnessed was the Franklin Arms F17 AR-15 chambered in 17wsm. When I lived on Kodiak Island, my buddy got one and we just flat out put fur down with it. Rarely did a fox ever get away from us without a hail of bullets if we weren’t shooting good that day. I used a 17 hmr and it put every fox down I ever hit with it, granted 95% of the shots were 75 yards and in. If you want to channel your inner Betsy Ross, then use a 204 Ruger. The only chance you have at avoiding a softball sized hole in a pelt is if you shoot them in the chest while they are facing you head on.


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[wytx]

How about a .204. I took a nice coyote 2 weeks ago with one and it did not damage any fur but I did manage to hit it right below the jaw and the shot ended up in the head without any damage.
A lot depends on the shot placement too.
Heavier bullets seem to have less damage to me.

 

[WCB]

If you can find a different load or load yourself some different bullets I would use the .17hornet. I believe CZ discontinued the hornet but just get a Savage Walking Varminter and shooting it. I have it and it is unbelievably accurate out to 500 yards (yes 500) I have killed yoted past 300 with it.

 

[TheGDog]

In my opinion, the 22 mag isn't a good coyote round unless you're shooting them close range head shots in a trap. I learned the hard way, a long time ago, with a coyote broadside at 30 yards. He collapsed at the shot and I moved on to focusing on a second before realizing that he was on his feet. I never found him and virtually no blood. I can only assume that the bullet did not penetrate the shoulder.

No.. your assumption would be incorrect. At 30yds, with .22 Mag it'd go thru no problem.

When I got my .17 HMR... while out in the field... I found both a Deer scapula... AND.. a piece of presumably mild-steel tubing, approx 3/8" wall thickness.

I set them up at 100yds LRF measured. It easily went thru the Deer Scapula. (I even tried to go back and make sure I tried to aim for the thicker parts later just to see if different outcome. No difference.) And on that steel tube? It cleanly went thru the first wall of the tubing, but did not pass thru the second.

You'll notice on the piece of steel tubing that apparently somebody was shooting at it with what looks to be a large-caliber pistol, probably with LRN bullets? See all the dents into it. The recoverd projectile from the steel tubing is shown there beside them.

I was shooting CCI Green TNT (Lead Free) 16gr shots this day.

If you don't hit vitals on a coyote.. OMG they can run a DAMN long ways!!! I learn that my very first time at bat with a coyote, with .223 Rem. It was a rapid jump shot opportunity... upon shooting him in that rushed opportunity... my first... he literally did a complete barrel-roll rotation mid-air from the impact! Then fell to the ground in a slump. Then just kinda out of it rocked back and forth sprawled across the ground for something like... I wanna say maybe 5-6 full seconds? I was all happy thinking "Yes!" Then son-of-a-B if he doesn't then get up... stand to his feet... turn to look at me... then bust out running away. I figure "Oh, Ok, don't panic... he'll probably just go 40-60yds then pile up.

NOPE! I blood-trail him 250+yds.... in 25mph winds.. up a knoll... then down into a ravine on a sloping side-hilling trail on down into the Ravine. I checked under a big Juniper in the bottom of the ravine's draw, sure enough silver dollar sized blood there too. Finally found some of the trail going back up the other side of the ravine.... then....nothing. Blood trail stopped. Even waited around for an hour watching the Raven's patrol hoping they'd clue me in somehow to his location. Unfortunately didn't see any focused behaviour from them.

2nd one I ever shot at... with LeHigh Controlled Chaos 55gr. There was a small branch of a greasewood in the way kinda... I was aiming from up and behind him. Aimed for in-between shoulder blades with an entry point as much to my side of his body as I could get before the branch in the way.

Well.. I'm guessing round must have deflected off the branch somewhere. Because it hit him... he rolled over on the ground... got back up to his feet... then actuallly came running right back towards the edge of the hill that I was posted up on. As I was putting the crosshairrs on him a 2nd time and beginning to track along with him right about to pull the trigger again.. BOOM!... the partner I was there with whammed him with a 12ga round.

That Controlled Chaos round? It ended up hitting his lumber/saccrum... and it splash-wounded, no penetration. At first I thought THAT wound was from his shotgun round because it looked so gnarly... and there was also a nice neat looking wound around his ribcage possibly nearish to area I was aiming towards. But upon skinning him, figured out those were from the shotgun pellets. There... and one went thru his cranium and jawbone.

I say all that to mention that they are tough lil mofos that can run a dang long way even while hurt bad with a wound that you do know will kill them, but just might not kill them instantly.

Plus... people shoot MtnLions treed up with .22 Mag and .22 LR and .17 HMR all the time.

EDIT: Also my stepdad had a nice coyote pelt taxidermied up that he'd taken with .22 Mag. At greater distance than 30yds.

 

[TheGDog]

I’d load the 17 hornet with 25gr hollow points. You will not have much fur sowing. V-Max is a varmint bullet not predator. I run a 17 rem with that bullet and have very few exits at 4000fps and I mainly shoot fox

Oh really?...Hmmph... well shoot... I thought varmint bullets were intended for varmints AND coyotes/fox/bobcat. Seems like ya read all over how people use V-max and the like for em all the time.

Ok..so if you say V-max not intended for preds... then what projectile do you end up using in that 17 rem? (You may be saying that this is what you use in the 17 rem, but it's not quite clear that's what you're saying, so I'm asking to clarify)

 

[Team4LongGun]

Would you guys be comfortable using a 17wsm for fox (50/50 reds and greys), bobcat and coyote under 150 yards?

I currently have a savage m25 in 17 hornet with bull barrel and laminate stock and although incredibly accurate, I hate carrying it. It’s heavy as an anvil… I just picked up a savage bmag in 17wsm for $150 but haven’t even shot it yet. It’s WAY lighter than the M25 though …

So I’m torn between getting a lighter 17 Hornet (CZ?)…switching to the bmag in 17wsm… or getting a 22mag or 22 hornet if you guys can vouch for their effectiveness on those 3 species in my 150 yard max range

Obviously I’m concerned with fur here. The 20gr vmax in my 17 hornet I’m not overly thrilled with on the fox.

Absolutely. My predator rifle IS a 17 WSM Bmag. Stupid accurate and a killer.

I will say, fur does get some damage.

 

[Centralcoastca]

Would you guys be comfortable using a 17wsm for fox (50/50 reds and greys), bobcat and coyote under 150 yards?

I currently have a savage m25 in 17 hornet with bull barrel and laminate stock and although incredibly accurate, I hate carrying it. It’s heavy as an anvil… I just picked up a savage bmag in 17wsm for $150 but haven’t even shot it yet. It’s WAY lighter than the M25 though …

So I’m torn between getting a lighter 17 Hornet (CZ?)…switching to the bmag in 17wsm… or getting a 22mag or 22 hornet if you guys can vouch for their effectiveness on those 3 species in my 150 yard max range

Obviously I’m concerned with fur here. The 20gr vmax in my 17 hornet I’m not overly thrilled with on the fox.

My buddy wacks coyotes all the time with his 17wsm typically inside 200 yds. He’s not concerned with fur so I can’t say what they do on the other side but he abuses the hell out of his bmag as it’s his beater varmint ranch gun and it seems to shoot very well. Might as well try it before moving on, plus it’s just oddball enough that there might be some ammo on the shelf unlike 22mag most of the time.

 

[Afhunter1]

Oh really?...Hmmph... well shoot... I thought varmint bullets were intended for varmints AND coyotes/fox/bobcat. Seems like ya read all over how people use V-max and the like for em all the time.

Ok..so if you say V-max not intended for preds... then what projectile do you end up using in that 17 rem? (You may be saying that this is what you use in the 17 rem, but it's not quite clear that's what you're saying, so I'm asking to clarify)

I’m not saying that you can’t use them or that nobody does. I’m just saying a V-max is designed to rapid fragment and at some speeds. It fragments to shallow and also leads to fur ripped up. I have watched a coyote shot straight in shoulder with a 204 run away with a splash wound more than once when my partner used 40gr V-maxes. My partner and I both shoot bergers. He shoots 35 gr in his 204 and I shoot 25gr in my 17. These are the target bergers not the varmint. They don’t make these bullets anymore and when they quit I bought 5k of em they work so well. I have a half dozen 17 cal rifles in many chamberings and have shot a lot of fox. The 17 rem / 25gr Berger target is one of these best combos for a predator hunter. The Hornady 25gr hollow point is a pretty good bullet but every once in a while one will blow up. That’s what I’d shoot if I couldn’t shoot the bergers.

Shooting Varmints and harvesting fur from Predators are different.

 

[WCB]

I’m not saying that you can’t use them or that nobody does. I’m just saying a V-max is designed to rapid fragment and at some speeds. It fragments to shallow and also leads to fur ripped up. I have watched a coyote shot straight in shoulder with a 204 run away with a splash wound more than once when my partner used 40gr V-maxes. My partner and I both shoot bergers. He shoots 35 gr in his 204 and I shoot 25gr in my 17. These are the target bergers not the varmint. They don’t make these bullets anymore and when they quit I bought 5k of em they work so well. I have a half dozen 17 cal rifles in many chamberings and have shot a lot of fox. The 17 rem / 25gr Berger target is one of these best combos for a predator hunter. The Hornady 25gr hollow point is a pretty good bullet but every once in a while one will blow up. That’s what I’d shoot if I couldn’t shoot the bergers.

Shooting Varmints and harvesting fur from Predators are different.

Agree 100%. I shoot the 20gr vmax in my 17 hornet. only had 2 issues with coyotes that I hit right on the shoulder or higher in the back...still killed them but would have been sewing softball sized or bigger holes in them....luckily 1 was mangy and the other was rubbed, wooly, and had a solid tail of burs so they didn't make the skinning shed.

What some of these guys are missing is the OP shoots Fox and Bobcats at close range. I will not shoot a fox with those 20 gr vmax unless I can get a straight on shot inside of 100 yards. Every other fox I have shot had at least 4-5 inches of sewing to do with a couple unsalvageable...all good broadside shots in the ribs and the most damage was done on the near side not the exit as the bullets just blew up on the ribs basically.

 

[Afhunter1]

Agree 100%. I shoot the 20gr vmax in my 17 hornet. only had 2 issues with coyotes that I hit right on the shoulder or higher in the back...still killed them but would have been sewing softball sized or bigger holes in them....luckily 1 was mangy and the other was rubbed, wooly, and had a solid tail of burs so they didn't make the skinning shed.

What some of these guys are missing is the OP shoots Fox and Bobcats at close range. I will not shoot a fox with those 20 gr vmax unless I can get a straight on shot inside of 100 yards. Every other fox I have shot had at least 4-5 inches of sewing to do with a couple unsalvageable...all good broadside shots in the ribs and the most damage was done on the near side not the exit as the bullets just blew up on the ribs basically.

If you would load your hornet with 25gr Hornady hollow points and shoot for the shoulder or brisket then you would be amazed at the difference. On a coyote you can’t hit the shoulder but they will penetrate the brisket. If you place em right there is not much to sow. I rarely get a exit wound shooting like that with my 17 rem and that is cooking at 4k.

 

[WCB]

If you would load your hornet with 25gr Hornady hollow points and shoot for the shoulder or brisket then you would be amazed at the difference. On a coyote you can’t hit the shoulder but they will penetrate the brisket. If you place em right there is not much to sow. I rarely get a exit wound shooting like that with my 17 rem and that is cooking at 4k.

Agree...my buddy shoots a 17 rem and loads 25 grain hollow points. I have basically ruled out shooting Fox in general since they are worth nothing and I have enough pelts hanging around and I don't reloaded. Coyotes have only been an issue like I said with 2 out of dozens so not too worried about it now.

 

[hobbes]

No.. your assumption would be incorrect. At 30yds, with .22 Mag it'd go thru no problem.

When I got my .17 HMR... while out in the field... I found both a Deer scapula... AND.. a piece of presumably mild-steel tubing, approx 3/8" wall thickness.

I set them up at 100yds LRF measured. It easily went thru the Deep Scapula. (I even tried to go back and make sure I tried to aim for the thicker parts later just to see if different outcome. No difference.) And on that steel tube? It cleanly went thru the first wall of the tubing, but did not pass thru the second.

You'll notice on the piece of steel tubing that apparently somebody was shooting at it with what looks to be a large-caliber pistol, probably with LRN bullets? See all the dents into it. The recoverd projectile from the steel tubing is shown there beside them.
View attachment 381671
I was shooting CCI Green TNT (Lead Free) 16gr shots this day.

If you don't hit vitals on a coyote.. OMG they can run a DAMN long ways!!! I learn that my very first time at bat with a coyote, with .223 Rem. It was a rapid jump shot opportunity... upon shooting him in that rushed opportunity... my first... he literally did a complete barrel-roll rotation mid-air from the impact! Then fell to the ground in a slump. Then just kinda out of it rocked back and forth sprawled across the ground for something like... I wanna say maybe 5-6 full seconds? I was all happy thinking "Yes!" Then son-of-a-B if he doesn't then get up... stand to his feet... turn to look at me... then bust out running away. I figure "Oh, Ok, don't panic... he'll probably just go 40-60yds then pile up.

NOPE! I blood-trail him 250+yds.... in 25mph winds.. up a knoll... then down into a ravine on a sloping side-hilling trail on down into the Ravine. I checked under a big Juniper in the bottom of the ravine's draw, sure enough silver dollar sized blood there too. Finally found some of the trail going back up the other side of the ravine.... then....nothing. Blood trail stopped. Even waited around for an hour watching the Raven's patrol hoping they'd clue me in somehow to his location. Unfortunately didn't see any focused behaviour from them.

2nd one I ever shot at... with LeHigh Controlled Chaos 55gr. There was a small branch of a greasewood in the way kinda... I was aiming from up and behind him. Aimed for in-between shoulder blades with an entry point as much to my side of his body as I could get before the branch in the way.

Well.. I'm guessing round must have deflected off the branch somewhere. Because it hit him... he rolled over on the ground... got back up to his feet... then actuallly came running right back towards the edge of the hill that I was posted up on. As I was putting the crosshairrs on him a 2nd time and beginning to track along with him right about to pull the trigger again.. BOOM!... the partner I was there with whammed him with a 12ga round.

That Controlled Chaos round? It ended up hitting his lumber/saccrum... and it splash-wounded, no penetration. At first I thought THAT wound was from his shotgun round because it looked so gnarly... and there was also a nice neat looking wound around his ribcage possibly nearish to area I was aiming towards. But open skinning him figured out those were from the shotgun pellets. There... and one went thru his cranium and jawbone.

I say all that to mention that they are tough lil mofos that can run a dang long way even while hurt bad with a wound that you do know will kill them, but just might not kill them instantly.

Plus... people shoot MtnLions treed up with .22 Mag and .22 LR and .17 HMR all the time.

EDIT: Also my stepdad had a nice coyote pelt taxidermied up that he'd taken with .22 Mag. At greater distance than 30yds.

I didn't read all of that. I'll say it again, regardless how many dry scapula bones you shoot through. A 22 mag is a poor coyote round. Will it kill one, of course, I killed a pile with a 22 LR that were standing at 10 feet in a trap.

Quite frankly, I'm done discussing caliber and ammo on here. There seems to be this effort to kill everything with the least possible qualified round because "bullet technology" has improved. Stack em up however you like, but I'm finished reading or talking about it.

 

[scottprice]

It sounds like my 17 hornet is a preferred option, but a hollow point is a better choice than my current 20gr vmax ….