Flintlock

[Tradchef]

I want to get back into muzzleloading. We just acquired a primitive season in montana not to long ago and I’d love to get back at it. I’ve heard that Kibler long rifles are outstanding. Any others to look at? Any good sources to check out to get more information as well?

 

[long hunter]

Go to the muzzleloading forum, lots of kibler guns being built and discussed there.

 

[87TT]

Kibler probably has one of the best locks out there. On a flintlock, that is mucho important. And they are pretty.

 

[Tradchef]

That’s what I hear. I’ve only shot other peoples flints and I’ve only owned percussion I just always hear that the lock on most production rifles aren’t very good.
I’ll check out the forum and thanks guys. Much appreciated

 

[Runningwater]

Myself and a couple friends have TVM's, I'd give them a look as well. Ours are all the Early Virginian style.

 

[CoHiCntry]

If you’re wanting a gun you put together yourself instead of buying “off the shelf” Kibler seems to be the way to go. I’m waiting for their new fowler that’s rumored to be coming out soon.

As mentioned above… the muzzleloading forum is a great resource for all things in traditional muzzleloading.

 

[87TT]

As if you need inspiration.

 

[Tradchef]

As if you need inspiration.

Shit….. I’ve watched that about a bazillion times already…

 

[Stalker69]

Kibler was going to come out with a hawken rifle, I thought, does anyone know if it’s available, or if , when ?

 

[87TT]

I got my first ML when I was 15. Had a few after but kind of quit for a while. a few years ago, I got the bug and wanted a "good" flintlock. I wanted a southern Mountain Rifke. I started looking and talked to Kibler and others. Kibler only made SMR's up to .45 cal, and Idaho requires .50 minimum. I don't know your skill level but Ibought a "precarve" parts kit from Pecatonica River. I figure it took me around 140 hours to build and I learned a lot. The Kiblers are a lot more finished and take a lot of the more stressful time consuming work out of the picture but are absolutely beautiful.
My .50


Now if I ever quit bowhunting, it may get used for an elk. Now I may try her on deer first.

 

[fishslap]

I’m getting a TVM iron Pennsylvania built right now. Being a lefty influenced my decision to go with them.

 

[Novashooter]

I'm assuming you are looking at flintlock rifles mainly. There are lots of different kinds of people who build and shoot muzzleloaders. Some just like building. Some just like shooting. Some just like hunting. Because of that you will often get wildly different responses depending on who you ask.

I was a member of the muzzleloading forum for a number of years, but no longer post there. You can get some fantastic advice for rifle building there, but there is a really toxic attitude there about the most random things. The forum claims to be all about traditional pre civil war muzzleloaders, so it shouldn't be too much a surprise they don't like dealing with modern stuff. What's odd is that you will not only get shunned, you can get deleted for even talking about "unmentionables". It doesn't have to be modern inclines either, and it's hard to tell what is, and what isn't ok there. There are also certain members there that are the most cranky old farts ever, and they absolutely ruin any discussion about shooting there. All I'm saying is take what you read there with a grain of salt. Their rifle building is great though. In my opinion American Longrifles forum is all around a better flintlock forum, however they mainly deal with flintlock rifles, big surprise. There's not much talk about muskets, fowlers, or shotguns there.

As for what to buy, it's somewhat up to you. I will say from firsthand experience, there is no cheap flintlock that isn't garbage. I'm sure someone out there with a TC, Lyman, Traditions, or even Pedersoli will come along to tell me otherwise, but my experience with them is 100% poor. I'm a huge TC fan. Their Hawken/Renegade percussion guns are... I'll go so far as they are the best mass produced traditional percussion guns ever made. Pedersoli's might look a little spiffier in some ways, but they are almost always lacking somewhere. Overall percussion caps are way more forgiving of manufacturing mistakes than flintlock. A hammer a little off is no problem. A nipple/drum a little crooked is no problem. As long as that hammer hits flat and hard on a cap at least kind of close to square, it's going to fire fine. Flintlock is not that way. Your flint needs to hit the frizzen at a good angle, and both the cock and frizzen springs need to be balanced so they work together to get a good scrape.

I had a TC flintlock hawken. Most of the rifle was fine, but the TC locks are simply garbage. Apparently there was an updated lock in the last few years of their production that was at least serviceable. I would never recommend an older one. They basically just smash a flint into a frizzen. Any sparks you get are more accidental than anything. I've seen more of these in person, and I've seen plenty in videos. I would never trust one. Flints would get crazy expensive too. I think I averaged 5-10 shots per flint in mine, averaging about 75% reliability. There are aftermarket locks for these which may be good, but that's even more time, money, and frustration. If TC flintlocks were only $300-$400 like their percussion versions, then they would be worth it. At $500+, they aren't worth it.

Lyman and Traditions are simply the dirt cheap import guns. Buy one if you want, they are cheap enough. Some people like them. I've seen better results with Lyman than TC, however, there's so much variability gun to gun with these you can't tell. I wouldn't waste my time on these.

Pedersoli are generally nicer looking guns, but they aren't cheap. Actually they are crazy expensive for what they are. This is just my opinion, but instead of spending $800-$900 on a Pedersoli flintlock, just spend the $1000-$1100 for a proper replica. One of the biggest deals when dealing with true longrifles is you want a proper swamped barrel. This means the barrel is tapered from breech to a few inches from the muzzle. It then enlarges slightly to the muzzle. This takes a lot of weight out of the muzzle end. For a target shooter, a 44" straight octagon barrel might be fine. A hunter is going to much more appreciate a swamped barrel.

If you just want a really nice, and top of the line reliable flintlock rifle with minimal work, then Kibler is the only brand you need to look into. They offer three rifles currently, I'm unsure if they will be releasing the Hawken or fowler next. Of their current rifles they offer three rather different styles. The Colonial American is a big rifle with a longer barrel, although not that long for longrifle standards at 43", about average for the time. The Mountain Rifle is quite small, although with a nice long 44" barrel. The Woodsman is kind of in the middle for size, but with a shorter 40" barrel. I have not put together a Kibler kit, but they are very easy. Anyone with very basic tools can do it. They come almost finished, you just fit parts in a few spots, and finish the wood how you see fit. Plenty of people knock these out over a weekend. Don't rush the job, but these are not difficult. Alternatively you can buy them "in the white" for an extra $525. For how easy these are, I would never buy that service unless I was disabled. If I were made of money, I would buy all three of these rifles, but if I had to pick one right now, it would for sure be the woodsrunner in 54 caliber. That one rifle is perfect for hunting any big game in the lower 48, legal in every state (some don't allow 50 caliber for elk and moose). If I were only deer hunting, I would give a hard look at the Mountain rifle in 45 caliber. It really comes down to what you want. The Mountain rifle is very different to what most people are used to. They have a ton of drop in the stock, and a hooked butt plate is not what most people have experienced. They are very light, and 45 caliber is underrated. It can shoot like a lazer beam for 100 yards, then it falls of the map fast. I actually consider this a good attribute, especially in more urban areas.

If you are looking to build a rifle because you like building, then there is a giant world to choose from. In my own case I bought my kit from Track of the Wolf. I used to live right by the store, and they are a place you will want to buy from no matter what rifle you get. The cool thing about TOTW kits is you can mix and match any parts. They are much more involved to build, but you can build them how you want without learning the super tricky skills like drilling ramrod holes of building from complete scratch. I originally wanted to build a golden age longrifle of the 1820ish era, but as I got going, I realized I'd rather have something a little earlier. It's not a huge difference in building, but the golden age butt plate is super thin, and quite hooked, just like that Kibler mountain rifle. I'm not a fan of them. Luckily my stock blank was actually for a 1780's replica, so I'll use the butt plate it is cut for. The only other change is I won't have the carving and bling. Ultimately I'm going to end up with something very similar to the Kibler woodsrunner, although with a 42" barrel. I'm close to finishing the rifle now. getting the barrel and breech plug inlet was a lot of work. The lock inlet was tedious, but not that bad. The butt plate inlet was actually pretty easy. I really just need to finish the trigger inlet, pin the barrel, and then finish the stock and barrel. Oh, and get the ramrod pipes on there. The time it takes to build a rifle like this is measured in months unless you are retired. It could be done faster, but why take shortcuts on something so expensive. In my case I did a bunch of work on mine for about 2 months last year, got busy, then worked on mine a month this year. I figure if I work hard, it should be done in September. That of course is just working a couple hours at a time on it here and there, not every day. I see 100 hours listed online, and that seems realistic. I'm sure you get faster the more you build.

As stated earlier, the lock is what makes or breaks a flintlock rifle. Definitely do research on what locks you are getting. At least Kibler, and Track of the Wolf both use Jim Chambers locks, and for good reason. They are phenomenal locks. Once you try one you will understand how flintlocks were dominant for 250ish years of firearms history.

 

[Novashooter]

P.S. I shoot left handed, but still chose to build a right handed gun. Do what you like, the cost is the same.

 

[87TT]

I'm assuming you are looking at flintlock rifles mainly. There are lots of different kinds of people who build and shoot muzzleloaders. Some just like building. Some just like shooting. Some just like hunting. Because of that you will often get wildly different responses depending on who you ask.

I was a member of the muzzleloading forum for a number of years, but no longer post there. You can get some fantastic advice for rifle building there, but there is a really toxic attitude there about the most random things. The forum claims to be all about traditional pre civil war muzzleloaders, so it shouldn't be too much a surprise they don't like dealing with modern stuff. What's odd is that you will not only get shunned, you can get deleted for even talking about "unmentionables". It doesn't have to be modern inclines either, and it's hard to tell what is, and what isn't ok there. There are also certain members there that are the most cranky old farts ever, and they absolutely ruin any discussion about shooting there. All I'm saying is take what you read there with a grain of salt. Their rifle building is great though. In my opinion American Longrifles forum is all around a better flintlock forum, however they mainly deal with flintlock rifles, big surprise. There's not much talk about muskets, fowlers, or shotguns there.

As for what to buy, it's somewhat up to you. I will say from firsthand experience, there is no cheap flintlock that isn't garbage. I'm sure someone out there with a TC, Lyman, Traditions, or even Pedersoli will come along to tell me otherwise, but my experience with them is 100% poor. I'm a huge TC fan. Their Hawken/Renegade percussion guns are... I'll go so far as they are the best mass produced traditional percussion guns ever made. Pedersoli's might look a little spiffier in some ways, but they are almost always lacking somewhere. Overall percussion caps are way more forgiving of manufacturing mistakes than flintlock. A hammer a little off is no problem. A nipple/drum a little crooked is no problem. As long as that hammer hits flat and hard on a cap at least kind of close to square, it's going to fire fine. Flintlock is not that way. Your flint needs to hit the frizzen at a good angle, and both the cock and frizzen springs need to be balanced so they work together to get a good scrape.

I had a TC flintlock hawken. Most of the rifle was fine, but the TC locks are simply garbage. Apparently there was an updated lock in the last few years of their production that was at least serviceable. I would never recommend an older one. They basically just smash a flint into a frizzen. Any sparks you get are more accidental than anything. I've seen more of these in person, and I've seen plenty in videos. I would never trust one. Flints would get crazy expensive too. I think I averaged 5-10 shots per flint in mine, averaging about 75% reliability. There are aftermarket locks for these which may be good, but that's even more time, money, and frustration. If TC flintlocks were only $300-$400 like their percussion versions, then they would be worth it. At $500+, they aren't worth it.

Lyman and Traditions are simply the dirt cheap import guns. Buy one if you want, they are cheap enough. Some people like them. I've seen better results with Lyman than TC, however, there's so much variability gun to gun with these you can't tell. I wouldn't waste my time on these.

Pedersoli are generally nicer looking guns, but they aren't cheap. Actually they are crazy expensive for what they are. This is just my opinion, but instead of spending $800-$900 on a Pedersoli flintlock, just spend the $1000-$1100 for a proper replica. One of the biggest deals when dealing with true longrifles is you want a proper swamped barrel. This means the barrel is tapered from breech to a few inches from the muzzle. It then enlarges slightly to the muzzle. This takes a lot of weight out of the muzzle end. For a target shooter, a 44" straight octagon barrel might be fine. A hunter is going to much more appreciate a swamped barrel.

If you just want a really nice, and top of the line reliable flintlock rifle with minimal work, then Kibler is the only brand you need to look into. They offer three rifles currently, I'm unsure if they will be releasing the Hawken or fowler next. Of their current rifles they offer three rather different styles. The Colonial American is a big rifle with a longer barrel, although not that long for longrifle standards at 43", about average for the time. The Mountain Rifle is quite small, although with a nice long 44" barrel. The Woodsman is kind of in the middle for size, but with a shorter 40" barrel. I have not put together a Kibler kit, but they are very easy. Anyone with very basic tools can do it. They come almost finished, you just fit parts in a few spots, and finish the wood how you see fit. Plenty of people knock these out over a weekend. Don't rush the job, but these are not difficult. Alternatively you can buy them "in the white" for an extra $525. For how easy these are, I would never buy that service unless I was disabled. If I were made of money, I would buy all three of these rifles, but if I had to pick one right now, it would for sure be the woodsrunner in 54 caliber. That one rifle is perfect for hunting any big game in the lower 48, legal in every state (some don't allow 50 caliber for elk and moose). If I were only deer hunting, I would give a hard look at the Mountain rifle in 45 caliber. It really comes down to what you want. The Mountain rifle is very different to what most people are used to. They have a ton of drop in the stock, and a hooked butt plate is not what most people have experienced. They are very light, and 45 caliber is underrated. It can shoot like a lazer beam for 100 yards, then it falls of the map fast. I actually consider this a good attribute, especially in more urban areas.

If you are looking to build a rifle because you like building, then there is a giant world to choose from. In my own case I bought my kit from Track of the Wolf. I used to live right by the store, and they are a place you will want to buy from no matter what rifle you get. The cool thing about TOTW kits is you can mix and match any parts. They are much more involved to build, but you can build them how you want without learning the super tricky skills like drilling ramrod holes of building from complete scratch. I originally wanted to build a golden age longrifle of the 1820ish era, but as I got going, I realized I'd rather have something a little earlier. It's not a huge difference in building, but the golden age butt plate is super thin, and quite hooked, just like that Kibler mountain rifle. I'm not a fan of them. Luckily my stock blank was actually for a 1780's replica, so I'll use the butt plate it is cut for. The only other change is I won't have the carving and bling. Ultimately I'm going to end up with something very similar to the Kibler woodsrunner, although with a 42" barrel. I'm close to finishing the rifle now. getting the barrel and breech plug inlet was a lot of work. The lock inlet was tedious, but not that bad. The butt plate inlet was actually pretty easy. I really just need to finish the trigger inlet, pin the barrel, and then finish the stock and barrel. Oh, and get the ramrod pipes on there. The time it takes to build a rifle like this is measured in months unless you are retired. It could be done faster, but why take shortcuts on something so expensive. In my case I did a bunch of work on mine for about 2 months last year, got busy, then worked on mine a month this year. I figure if I work hard, it should be done in September. That of course is just working a couple hours at a time on it here and there, not every day. I see 100 hours listed online, and that seems realistic. I'm sure you get faster the more you build.

As stated earlier, the lock is what makes or breaks a flintlock rifle. Definitely do research on what locks you are getting. At least Kibler, and Track of the Wolf both use Jim Chambers locks, and for good reason. They are phenomenal locks. Once you try one you will understand how flintlocks were dominant for 250ish years of firearms history.

Kibler makes his own locks now and I have heard they are better.

 

[Novashooter]

Kibler makes his own locks now and I have heard they are better.

Sweet. I hear they make their own barrels too now. Kibler is really doing a great thing for the market bringing such a high quality product to people for such a reasonable price.

 

[jayhawk]

Can’t go wrong with a Kibler or Jim Chambers kit. A lot of times you can get them premade/prefinished. May want to contact them to discuss the costs/options

 

[Tradchef]

I'm assuming you are looking at flintlock rifles mainly. There are lots of different kinds of people who build and shoot muzzleloaders. Some just like building. Some just like shooting. Some just like hunting. Because of that you will often get wildly different responses depending on who you ask.

I was a member of the muzzleloading forum for a number of years, but no longer post there. You can get some fantastic advice for rifle building there, but there is a really toxic attitude there about the most random things. The forum claims to be all about traditional pre civil war muzzleloaders, so it shouldn't be too much a surprise they don't like dealing with modern stuff. What's odd is that you will not only get shunned, you can get deleted for even talking about "unmentionables". It doesn't have to be modern inclines either, and it's hard to tell what is, and what isn't ok there. There are also certain members there that are the most cranky old farts ever, and they absolutely ruin any discussion about shooting there. All I'm saying is take what you read there with a grain of salt. Their rifle building is great though. In my opinion American Longrifles forum is all around a better flintlock forum, however they mainly deal with flintlock rifles, big surprise. There's not much talk about muskets, fowlers, or shotguns there.

As for what to buy, it's somewhat up to you. I will say from firsthand experience, there is no cheap flintlock that isn't garbage. I'm sure someone out there with a TC, Lyman, Traditions, or even Pedersoli will come along to tell me otherwise, but my experience with them is 100% poor. I'm a huge TC fan. Their Hawken/Renegade percussion guns are... I'll go so far as they are the best mass produced traditional percussion guns ever made. Pedersoli's might look a little spiffier in some ways, but they are almost always lacking somewhere. Overall percussion caps are way more forgiving of manufacturing mistakes than flintlock. A hammer a little off is no problem. A nipple/drum a little crooked is no problem. As long as that hammer hits flat and hard on a cap at least kind of close to square, it's going to fire fine. Flintlock is not that way. Your flint needs to hit the frizzen at a good angle, and both the cock and frizzen springs need to be balanced so they work together to get a good scrape.

I had a TC flintlock hawken. Most of the rifle was fine, but the TC locks are simply garbage. Apparently there was an updated lock in the last few years of their production that was at least serviceable. I would never recommend an older one. They basically just smash a flint into a frizzen. Any sparks you get are more accidental than anything. I've seen more of these in person, and I've seen plenty in videos. I would never trust one. Flints would get crazy expensive too. I think I averaged 5-10 shots per flint in mine, averaging about 75% reliability. There are aftermarket locks for these which may be good, but that's even more time, money, and frustration. If TC flintlocks were only $300-$400 like their percussion versions, then they would be worth it. At $500+, they aren't worth it.

Lyman and Traditions are simply the dirt cheap import guns. Buy one if you want, they are cheap enough. Some people like them. I've seen better results with Lyman than TC, however, there's so much variability gun to gun with these you can't tell. I wouldn't waste my time on these.

Pedersoli are generally nicer looking guns, but they aren't cheap. Actually they are crazy expensive for what they are. This is just my opinion, but instead of spending $800-$900 on a Pedersoli flintlock, just spend the $1000-$1100 for a proper replica. One of the biggest deals when dealing with true longrifles is you want a proper swamped barrel. This means the barrel is tapered from breech to a few inches from the muzzle. It then enlarges slightly to the muzzle. This takes a lot of weight out of the muzzle end. For a target shooter, a 44" straight octagon barrel might be fine. A hunter is going to much more appreciate a swamped barrel.

If you just want a really nice, and top of the line reliable flintlock rifle with minimal work, then Kibler is the only brand you need to look into. They offer three rifles currently, I'm unsure if they will be releasing the Hawken or fowler next. Of their current rifles they offer three rather different styles. The Colonial American is a big rifle with a longer barrel, although not that long for longrifle standards at 43", about average for the time. The Mountain Rifle is quite small, although with a nice long 44" barrel. The Woodsman is kind of in the middle for size, but with a shorter 40" barrel. I have not put together a Kibler kit, but they are very easy. Anyone with very basic tools can do it. They come almost finished, you just fit parts in a few spots, and finish the wood how you see fit. Plenty of people knock these out over a weekend. Don't rush the job, but these are not difficult. Alternatively you can buy them "in the white" for an extra $525. For how easy these are, I would never buy that service unless I was disabled. If I were made of money, I would buy all three of these rifles, but if I had to pick one right now, it would for sure be the woodsrunner in 54 caliber. That one rifle is perfect for hunting any big game in the lower 48, legal in every state (some don't allow 50 caliber for elk and moose). If I were only deer hunting, I would give a hard look at the Mountain rifle in 45 caliber. It really comes down to what you want. The Mountain rifle is very different to what most people are used to. They have a ton of drop in the stock, and a hooked butt plate is not what most people have experienced. They are very light, and 45 caliber is underrated. It can shoot like a lazer beam for 100 yards, then it falls of the map fast. I actually consider this a good attribute, especially in more urban areas.

If you are looking to build a rifle because you like building, then there is a giant world to choose from. In my own case I bought my kit from Track of the Wolf. I used to live right by the store, and they are a place you will want to buy from no matter what rifle you get. The cool thing about TOTW kits is you can mix and match any parts. They are much more involved to build, but you can build them how you want without learning the super tricky skills like drilling ramrod holes of building from complete scratch. I originally wanted to build a golden age longrifle of the 1820ish era, but as I got going, I realized I'd rather have something a little earlier. It's not a huge difference in building, but the golden age butt plate is super thin, and quite hooked, just like that Kibler mountain rifle. I'm not a fan of them. Luckily my stock blank was actually for a 1780's replica, so I'll use the butt plate it is cut for. The only other change is I won't have the carving and bling. Ultimately I'm going to end up with something very similar to the Kibler woodsrunner, although with a 42" barrel. I'm close to finishing the rifle now. getting the barrel and breech plug inlet was a lot of work. The lock inlet was tedious, but not that bad. The butt plate inlet was actually pretty easy. I really just need to finish the trigger inlet, pin the barrel, and then finish the stock and barrel. Oh, and get the ramrod pipes on there. The time it takes to build a rifle like this is measured in months unless you are retired. It could be done faster, but why take shortcuts on something so expensive. In my case I did a bunch of work on mine for about 2 months last year, got busy, then worked on mine a month this year. I figure if I work hard, it should be done in September. That of course is just working a couple hours at a time on it here and there, not every day. I see 100 hours listed online, and that seems realistic. I'm sure you get faster the more you build.

As stated earlier, the lock is what makes or breaks a flintlock rifle. Definitely do research on what locks you are getting. At least Kibler, and Track of the Wolf both use Jim Chambers locks, and for good reason. They are phenomenal locks. Once you try one you will understand how flintlocks were dominant for 250ish years of firearms history.

I hunt. I shoot a lot but it’s purely for the sake of killing animals to fill my freezer. I own my own chef company so I’m not what you would call rich and rolling in cash to just piss away on whatever I see fit for the minute at hand. I prefer to buy the right tool for the job the first time if possible. My last muzzleloader was a T/C renegade in percussion. It was a fantastic shooter and a good rifle to start out on when I was a kid back in Vermont. We just started a heritage season in December for muzzleloader here in montana. I can’t use my longbow during that time so I figured this might be a good time to get back into this game. A lot of times I’m just too busy during archery season so I depend on the firearms as well when I slow down for a few weeks. I usually do well in archery but sometimes I can’t get out for elk in enough time to make it happen with the stickbow so I figured this would be a great option
I spoke with Jim Kibler and i think after speaking with him about a few questions I had and from what everyone says about him and his rifles that’s a great option. I’m just putting a couple hundred bucks away every week or two to put towards it so I’m hoping I’ll get one ordered up next month. I’ll keep you all posted. I’m actually really excited to get back into it and gain a better knowledge base on traditional firearms and hunting style.

 

[Stalker69]

I hunt. I shoot a lot but it’s purely for the sake of killing animals to fill my freezer. I own my own chef company so I’m not what you would call rich and rolling in cash to just piss away on whatever I see fit for the minute at hand. I prefer to buy the right tool for the job the first time if possible. My last muzzleloader was a T/C renegade in percussion. It was a fantastic shooter and a good rifle to start out on when I was a kid back in Vermont. We just started a heritage season in December for muzzleloader here in montana. I can’t use my longbow during that time so I figured this might be a good time to get back into this game. A lot of times I’m just too busy during archery season so I depend on the firearms as well when I slow down for a few weeks. I usually do well in archery but sometimes I can’t get out for elk in enough time to make it happen with the stickbow so I figured this would be a great option
I spoke with Jim Kibler and i think after speaking with him about a few questions I had and from what everyone says about him and his rifles that’s a great option. I’m just putting a couple hundred bucks away every week or two to put towards it so I’m hoping I’ll get one ordered up next month. I’ll keep you all posted. I’m actually really excited to get back into it and gain a better knowledge base on traditional firearms and hunting style.

Are you going to build one from his kits ? If so which one ?

 

[87TT]

You won’t be sorry. For your use, I would get the Woodsrunner in a 54 cal.

 

[Tradchef]

Jim suggested the Woodsrunner in 54cal. I told him I’d like a 54 or 58 cal for out this way.