Explain Bushing Dies

[Hschweers]

I posted this on my other thread but it was very off topic and I’m not getting a response. I have not yet started reloading, so I don’t know anything, but I’d like your expertise.

Bushings are ordered off of case neck thickness x2 + bullet diameter - .001/.002/.003 (desired neck tension), correct? Or measure outside diameter of a loaded round and subtract for neck tension.

Everything I’m finding says buy a new lot of brass, measure up, order bushings, and load indefinitely. As long as you’re staying with the same brand of brass, your neck tension will be consistent.

Do you remeasure and reorder bushings after every (or every other/every third) firing? If I understand everything correctly, between the firing and resizing process a case neck is bound to stretch, and therefore thin out the walls. So your case neck thickness dimension is ever changing with each firing/sizing. Do people change bushings based on number of firings? I haven’t read anything saying people do, which makes me think the bushing dies and neck tension is all a bunch of mental masturbation and isn’t what people think it is beyond the first firing.

I would also think that staying consistent with one manufacturer doesn’t matter after the first firing since every case neck is going to react differently. First time around they may be a consistent thickness by using all of the same manufacturer, but after a firing or 2, all 100 cases are going to have a handful of different thickness measurements depending on how each one reacted with the firing and sizing.

Am I understanding incorrectly? Or are people switching bushings with every loading of a set of brass and just leaving that step out?

 

[9.1]

Before you buy a bunch of bushing dies, measure, shoot, measure again and then you'll have a better understanding of this as it applies to your system. Repeat a bunch of times with the same piece of brass, and you'll know for sure how this applies to your system.

Also, don't believe everything you read on the internet or even on Rokslide.

 

[Lawnboi]

Both methods of measurement you have will work. But I’d subtract .003-.004 minimum. This accounts for spring back and usually most using bushing dies are using an expander of some kind.

As far as changing bushings. Brass will harden if you do not anneal, and that can cause you to have to go down in bushing size, that’s usually a few loadings down the road but it can happen, specifically when loading with minimal neck tension.

How I do it now, knowing I anneal, and am running a .002 sub cal mandrel, is measure the outside of a loaded round, and subtract .004.

 

[Harvey_NW]

This.

How I do it now, knowing I anneal, and am running a .002 sub cal mandrel, is measure the outside of a loaded round, and subtract .004.

Bushing dies are designed for consistent neck tension on turned necks, but they stick and expander in there to make them modular and universal. If you under size them and expand back out like a traditional honed FL die, it will help mitigate the thickness differences in unturned or thinning necks.

Do you actually need a bushing die? Are you shooting a custom chamber that requires a bushing die, or are you trying to fine tune something before you have experience actually doing it? Because despite the mostly useless benchrest tactics posted all over hunting platforms, the majority of people can't shoot the difference between a couple thou in neck tension, or sub .003" runout, or turned necks, etc. There is a point of diminishing return. And a standard FL die will avoid a donut.

 

[Hschweers]

This.


Bushing dies are designed for consistent neck tension on turned necks, but they stick and expander in there to make them modular and universal. If you under size them and expand back out like a traditional honed FL die, it will help mitigate the thickness differences in unturned or thinning necks.

Do you actually need a bushing die? Are you shooting a custom chamber that requires a bushing die, or are you trying to fine tune something before you have experience actually doing it? Because despite the mostly useless benchrest tactics posted all over hunting platforms, the majority of people can't shoot the difference between a couple thou in neck tension, or sub .003" runout, or turned necks, etc. There is a point of diminishing return. And a standard FL die will avoid a donut.

Just trying to understand everything before I start buying. I don’t want to spend $60-$100 on a standard set of FL dies, and then 2 months later decide I want bushing dies to try and squeak out more accuracy. Realistically, I probably won’t need them, because I’m sure my rifles can shoot way better than myself with basic hand loads. The thing I really want is a micrometer seating die, but don’t really want to buy one individually as the cost difference of the single seating die to a kit with bushing dies is about equivalent to individual FL die and individual seating die. In that case, might as well go bushing die

 

[Hschweers]

Both methods of measurement you have will work. But I’d subtract .003-.004 minimum. This accounts for spring back and usually most using bushing dies are using an expander of some kind.

As far as changing bushings. Brass will harden if you do not anneal, and that can cause you to have to go down in bushing size, that’s usually a few loadings down the road but it can happen, specifically when loading with minimal neck tension.

How I do it now, knowing I anneal, and am running a .002 sub cal mandrel, is measure the outside of a loaded round, and subtract .004.

Thank you for this. I had never heard people acknowledge hardening or forward movement of brass through firings that can thicken the neck? It seemed like people were setting it once and forgetting about it, which made me think their neck tension wasn’t even what they thought it was.

 

[dukeball33]

Just trying to understand everything before I start buying. I don’t want to spend $60-$100 on a standard set of FL dies, and then 2 months later decide I want bushing dies to try and squeak out more accuracy. Realistically, I probably won’t need them, because I’m sure my rifles can shoot way better than myself with basic hand loads. The thing I really want is a micrometer seating die, but don’t really want to buy one individually as the cost difference of the single seating die to a kit with bushing dies is about equivalent to individual FL die and individual seating die. In that case, might as well go bushing die

Hornady and Redding have micrometers that replace the seater plug on their standard seating die, so you can purchase the standard FL 2-die set and then the micrometer. I bet RCBS, Forster, etc may have similar, idk. The micrometer can be swapped to other caliber seater dies. Here is a link to the Redding version:

Redding Bullet Seating Micrometer #9067 (243 Winchester, 7mm Remington

Redding Bullet Seating Micrometers are the perfect addition to any bullet seating die that utilizes 1/2-20" threads. For years Redding Competition...

www.midwayusa.com

 

[Lawnboi]

Thank you for this. I had never heard people acknowledge hardening or forward movement of brass through firings that can thicken the neck? It seemed like people were setting it once and forgetting about it, which made me think their neck tension wasn’t even what they thought it was.

In my cases it’s gotten smaller. Not larger.

Just remember for everything you do, there is spring back. How much depends on how much work is being done. If you don’t anneal it can become more of a chore for consistency.

 

[SDHNTR]

I use the same size bushing. I do not change in between firing. I size down with a bushing so that when it is then pulled back up over the expander, I feel a minimal amount of contact on the neck ID. It’s a feel thing but usually .002 or .003” under loaded size. I like the gold Redding bushings. I also use Redding’s upgraded floating carbide expander button and have seen a measurable improvement in concentricity.

 

[SDHNTR]

Thank you for this. I had never heard people acknowledge hardening or forward movement of brass through firings that can thicken the neck? It seemed like people were setting it once and forgetting about it, which made me think their neck tension wasn’t even what they thought it was.

You’re mostly right. Starting with good brass from the get go helps tremendously. But after that you will need some method of ensuring neck consistency. Either neck turning, or some form of expander process.

 

[Harvey_NW]

Just trying to understand everything before I start buying. I don’t want to spend $60-$100 on a standard set of FL dies, and then 2 months later decide I want bushing dies to try and squeak out more accuracy.

I don't blame you. Just my .02 having gone down this rabbit hole, keep it simple in the beginning and focus on consistency. Despite a lot of traditional dogma, a bushing die probably won't improve the precision of a load if you take it to a significant sample size.

The thing I really want is a micrometer seating die, but don’t really want to buy one individually as the cost difference of the single seating die to a kit with bushing dies is about equivalent to individual FL die and individual seating die. In that case, might as well go bushing die

As linked in previous comments, you can buy a single micrometer and bounce it between all of your seating dies that come in a FL set. Takes an extra minute to setup, but saves quite a bit if you plan to buy equipment to load multiple cartridges. You might also take a look at this.

Universal Bullet Seating Die | Frankford Arsenal

Universal Bullet Seating Die

www.frankfordarsenal.com

 

[EdP]

I use Hornady dies with the universal micrometer seating stem. Just one micrometer stem needed for all your die sets. The Reddings are not as "universal" so you will need more of them if you reload numerous cartridges.

I have a couple of hunting rifles that shoot 1/2 MOA (5 shots at 100yds) with handloads crafted with a beam scale and standard full length dies. I don't think those rifles or my other hunting rifles would get a meaningful benefit from bushing dies, neck turning, or some of the other diminished return processes that bench rest and PRS shooters may find beneficial.

 

[Hschweers]

Hornady and Redding have micrometers that replace the seater plug on their standard seating die, so you can purchase the standard FL 2-die set and then the micrometer. I bet RCBS, Forster, etc may have similar, idk. The micrometer can be swapped to other caliber seater dies. Here is a link to the Redding version:

Redding Bullet Seating Micrometer #9067 (243 Winchester, 7mm Remington

Redding Bullet Seating Micrometers are the perfect addition to any bullet seating die that utilizes 1/2-20" threads. For years Redding Competition...

www.midwayusa.com

Appreciate this. Hadn’t seen it before. What’s the achievable adjustment (realistically) with a standard seating die? .005”? .01”? .015”? just by tightening/loosening the die in set up

 

[dukeball33]

Appreciate this. Hadn’t seen it before. What’s the achievable adjustment (realistically) with a standard seating die? .005”? .01”? .015”? just by tightening/loosening the die in set up

I don't know the exact answer to this, but a full turn of 14 TPI would be 0.072. So, 1/32 of a turn would be 0.002 which seems reasonable theoretically, never tried to measure it practically. The real value in a micrometer is time saving if you want to run any seating depth tests or change seating depth over time, much much simpler with the micrometer. In my opinion easily worth the $40-50, especially compounded over multiple cartridges. Might be even worthwhile for the more expensive stand alone micrometer die, but the interchangeable micrometer is the much cheaper option.

There are arguments that seating depth probably doesn't change hunting situation hits on target (if you have a good bullet / powder combination for rifle), which is likely true, but it is fun (for me) to tinker... especially with cheaper to shoot cartridges with lower recoil.

 

[Unckebob]

Just trying to understand everything before I start buying. I don’t want to spend $60-$100 on a standard set of FL dies, and then 2 months later decide I want bushing dies to try and squeak out more accuracy. Realistically, I probably won’t need them, because I’m sure my rifles can shoot way better than myself with basic hand loads. The thing I really want is a micrometer seating die, but don’t really want to buy one individually as the cost difference of the single seating die to a kit with bushing dies is about equivalent to individual FL die and individual seating die. In that case, might as well go bushing die

If you don't "know" you need a bushing die, you almost certainly don't need one. That is my theory.

When I started reloading, I bought one and could not tell any difference in my actual accuracy. Someday, I might be a better shooter and/or be a better hand loader. Buying that die and the bushing was a mistake

 

[Unckebob]

I don't blame you. Just my .02 having gone down this rabbit hole, keep it simple in the beginning and focus on consistency. Despite a lot of traditional dogma, a bushing die probably won't improve the precision of a load if you take it to a significant sample size.


As linked in previous comments, you can buy a single micrometer and bounce it between all of your seating dies that come in a FL set. Takes an extra minute to setup, but saves quite a bit if you plan to buy equipment to load multiple cartridges. You might also take a look at this.

Universal Bullet Seating Die | Frankford Arsenal

Universal Bullet Seating Die

www.frankfordarsenal.com

I got the Frankford Arsenal seating kit on a great sale. I really like it because of the way it allows the bullet to go into that little chute for loading. For little bullets 223, where I am constantly dropping bullets trying to hold them over the little neck, the FA seating die is awesome.

I also plan to use it for cartridges I won't load a lot of rounds for like 308 and 30-06. Rather than the expense of two die sets, I got an inexpensive Lee Sizing Die for each.

I already had the Hornady Micrometer. I use it for my other rifle cartridges mostly out of habit.

 

[NevadaMike]

I watched this video and ended up selling my bushing dies and going with custom homed Forster dies. It's fairly inexpensive, keeps it simple and my little brain really likes simple. I have a set for my 7mm PRC on the way right now and I will box them right up, include my ADG brass and and Berger 180s and let them hone the die and seating stem. Like previously mentioned you need to be using the same brass for consistent results. If you are a recreational shooter or hunter with the need for hunting groups and not bug holes you can always use the sizer of your choice, take out the expander ball and follow sizing with a mandrel for fairly consistent neck tension.

 

[Lawnboi]

I watched this video and ended up selling my bushing dies and going with custom homed Forster dies. It's fairly inexpensive, keeps it simple and my little brain really likes simple. I have a set for my 7mm PRC on the way right now and I will box them right up, include my ADG brass and and Berger 180s and let them hone the die and seating stem. Like previously mentioned you need to be using the same brass for consistent results. If you are a recreational shooter or hunter with the need for hunting groups and not bug holes you can always use the sizer of your choice, take out the expander ball and follow sizing with a mandrel for fairly consistent neck tension.

What did Forster tell you for a timeline on backorder/honing? I need to order a honed 3006 die but don’t want to pay them and wait a year.

 

[NevadaMike]

I had two sets done earlier in the year and they were back in a few weeks. I am not sure what the timeline is now. They respond fairly quickly to emails.