Expanded Spine Chart and Arrow Build

ztrusky

FNG
Joined
May 3, 2017
Messages
39
Hey everyone

New to Rokslide, I'm really enjoying all the info on here.

Thought I'd share my rabbit hole of an arrow build I did two years ago. I want to emphasise that I'm a rookie hunter and I'm not giving any advise. My goal was to build a more accurate arrow and I just want to see if anyone else has similar experiences. I was having issues with broadhead flight and accuracy at further range. I was shooting gold tip pro hunters with the standard inserts and 100 g up front in a 3 fletch blazer vane. From a lot of bugging my bowshop and podcasting I determined:

1. A heavier arrow is better for hunting and potentially accuracy.
2. More weight up front can be good. (I dunno about efoc, I don;t even calculate my foc).
3. Having enough surface area on your fletch is important for broadhead flight.

What I found when trying to accomplish these things was that most spine charts don't allow you to build very heavy arrows. I was shooting for 500 grains, which was a big step from a 370 grain arrow. I extrapolated on the gold tip spine chart and created more columns for heavier point weights (attached below).


So shooting 70 lbs at 28" I ended up in a 250 spine, which seemed too stiff and defeated the purpose of the .166 id arrows i wanted to shoot. So I ended up in a 300 spine with a four fletch in the gold tip fusion vanes. Things were dandy until broadheads started wind planing into the nether nether (Kudu point 150 g). The Goldtip hit insert ended up being the culprit. After multiple shots the insert would become misaligned, which aggravated me for all the expense that went into this. Called goldtip and a rep confirmed that this was a common problem. So I went to a easton 4mm half out and haven't looked back since. So after the initial opinions I came up with other and confirmed some priorities for accurate arrows that fly well (For me).

1. Heavy arrows with enough weight up front. Seems to really help longer distance shots, 60-100 yrds for me. Also important for penetration.

2. Sturdy inserts that stay aligned.

3. Ensuring BOTH ends of the shaft are square.

4, Enough steering in the back for whatever you choose to put up front. I don't think 3 fletch or 4 fletch matters, just how much total surface area you need for your tune.

5. Spin your arrows and cut off the wobble.

I'm getting good consistent groups at 80 with my broadheads and so far I whacked a coyote at 65 yds quartering to and it ended up dead right there. I'm happy with the results and glad I found a system I don't have to mess with, really hoping I get to try it out on a deer this year.

I'd love to hear other peoples priorities for their arrows and what they think of my expanded spine chart. My arrows are right at 500 grains, which I think is great for the deer and bear here in the sierras.
 

Brendan

WKR
Joined
Aug 27, 2013
Messages
3,875
Location
Massachusetts
Pretty much agree with you except a couple details.

I just use a program to calculate an exact dynamic spine for the exact build I'm doing. License fee is 100% worth it and makes it a lot easier to check specs on different builds. This is Pinwheel Software for Archers on the Mac. Can do sight tapes and cut charts too.

SFAX Spine.png

A couple comments from my perspective:

Broadhead alignment and squaring arrows is critical. This is part of the reason I hate outserts of any sort, over time I haven't found one that stays square. Even the well designed ones are imparting extra leverage on the front of the shaft. And, I shoot in bag targets at my range, that over time damages any sort of a collar that isn't square with the end of the shaft. I really prefer the Easton or Iron Will HIT system, and prefer .204" arrows so I can run lighted nocks which just aren't reliable on micro diameter.

Arrow weight, and an arrow flying true / in tune is responsible for penetration as opposed to FOC. Arrow flight being the most important (And, a strong setup that doesn't fail...)

Higher FOC can help, but it can also hurt. It might help you be more accurate in a crosswind, but can also cause the tail to kick out and hurt penetration. All of this assuming you have a stiff enough arrow, with a light enough GPI where you can actually get FOC higher without shooting something way too heavy. Don't over think it, buy a good strong arrow, use extra point and insert weight to get your target overall weight along with other components.

I do like a heavier arrow, but the only time it will be innately more accurate is in the wind (all else equal) as it will drift less.

Agree more fletch is better. You don't need it for a perfectly tuned arrow, when shooting well, but shooting under pressure in the field, I like a 4 fletch with a mild helical.
 
OP
Z

ztrusky

FNG
Joined
May 3, 2017
Messages
39
Thanks forthe input, I will check that software out. I didn't know there was a way to check dynamic spine other than walk back tuning. That arrow you have plugged in there us pretty darn close to where I ended. I am starting ti think the .204 I'd is better all around just for availability of components like you said.
 

Brendan

WKR
Joined
Aug 27, 2013
Messages
3,875
Location
Massachusetts
Thanks forthe input, I will check that software out. I didn't know there was a way to check dynamic spine other than walk back tuning. That arrow you have plugged in there us pretty darn close to where I ended. I am starting ti think the .204 I'd is better all around just for availability of components like you said.

I really, really like some of the micro diameter arrows, I just don't like the components. I've had lighted nocks explode on the first shot out of the package, and had all sorts of trouble with the outserts I've tried. Haven't tried them all by any means, but with how close the .204" series are in performance, it's been a no-brainer for me.

The software isn't fool-proof (then again, neither are the spine charts) but it definitely gives you a good starting point and the ability to test stuff out before buying components. I still tune / test after building, but I certainly make less component-purchase mistakes this way. Think about it - buy a dozen arrows of the wrong spine once, and you've paid for the software!
 

Beendare

WKR
Joined
May 6, 2014
Messages
8,999
Location
Corripe cervisiam
OP, in your post, you meant to sat 'the Gold tip outserts' not inserts right?

Many before you have found the same; its the outserts that are the Achilles heel of those skinny shafts.

If you want to shoot the skinny shafts a guy has to spend the big $$ for the after market machined outserts for those to come close to having good BH alignment.

______
 

Beendare

WKR
Joined
May 6, 2014
Messages
8,999
Location
Corripe cervisiam
Looks like Brendan and I were posting at the same time....

Those skinny shafts have a learning curve and its a PITA. I shot those back in the 90's when I was sponsored by Beman....nothing but problems with the outserts. It was a Herculean effort to get BH's on straight.


Just about every experienced guy I know has tried them then settled on the 5mm shafts....they seem to be the best of both worlds; skinny enough and they use regular components.

_____
 
OP
Z

ztrusky

FNG
Joined
May 3, 2017
Messages
39
Yea you are correct it is an outsert and man did those things bend easy. The easton titanium half outs have been great though, but again correct they are spendy. I do seem to retain them well if I break a shaft, I have some that have been in 3 shafts.
 
Joined
Mar 11, 2014
Messages
432
Location
Michigan
Good read, the above is the issue with those Ti halfouts. The halfout makes it but the leverage it creates will snap a lot of those lighter faster arrows right behind it. Its been better with FMJ 4MM but still can bend the shaft. I really have had great luck with IW D6 inserts and collars or Valkyries -- both are $$$$$$ but last.
 

Zac

WKR
Joined
Dec 1, 2018
Messages
2,526
Location
UT
IMO Valkyrie is the only way to go for micros. That being said I now run an Axis with IW components.
 

sneaky

"DADDY"
Joined
Feb 1, 2014
Messages
10,112
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ID
Thanks forthe input, I will check that software out. I didn't know there was a way to check dynamic spine other than walk back tuning. That arrow you have plugged in there us pretty darn close to where I ended. I am starting ti think the .204 I'd is better all around just for availability of components like you said.
Archer's Advantage is another good program to use besides OnTarget the Pinwheel software

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
 

sneaky

"DADDY"
Joined
Feb 1, 2014
Messages
10,112
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ID
If you're gonna shoot an expandable head, the Thorn broadheads are direct glue ins for the .166 ID shafts and you can use Gold Tip Fact weights to fine tune your head weight. Eliminates inserts or outserts altogether

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
 
Joined
Jan 15, 2018
Messages
12
Location
CO
I've read the OP's post and subsequent comments, nodding my head in agreement at most everything....I've built .204's and .166's (using the Valkyrie system and outserts and have had the absolute best luck and consistency in flight and lethal shots on deer, hogs, etc.)...getting both arrow setups to the same 579gr.

So I can shoot both arrows interchangeably with the same sight tape etc...I'm sure some will say that's next to impossible...different spines, FOC, different shape/weight broadheads, etc....but it's worked wonderfully for 2yrs now. However, while the .204's are a cheaper build, even with my Ethics components...wind planing was an issue last month on my KS whitetail hunt...high temps and winds, upwards of 20-35mph winds and gusts.

Fortunately I had both arrow setups with me and luckily realized after some practice shots early in my trip, that the wind was definitely pushing my arrows 6-10inches, even at 30yds. I spot n stalked in to a old warrior buck and put a perfect 30yd shot on him with the micro;s in 25mph winds....something I now realize wouldn't have happened had I stayed with my Easton 5mm with 100gr IW's... <--this setup is legit and when there's no wind...they fly amazing. However, with windy conditions on deer and certainly in the elk woods...I feel like I'd be better off with micro's

Thus, I just can't find a flaw in the micro-diameter setup and intend to switch entirely to micro diameter arrows for next season. Yes, the shafts and components are $$$$, but damn...do they fly well. Even though they're the same total arrow weight...the micro's also seem quieter.

Long rant to say i'm convinced to go full-in on microdiameter...but several valid points were made earlier in the thread about collars and squaring the ends/issues with keeping them square.

Has anyone tried the new Nexxus arrows yet? Adam Greentree's new company...only microdiameters, roughly same price as the valkyrie and X-impacts....

My main complaint with the micro's was mentioned earlier as well...the lighted nocks don't seem even remotely as bright or reliable as the standard size lighted nocks. I love the lighted nocks, but ultimately, arrow flight is more important if I plan to harvest the animal quickly.
 
Joined
Jul 27, 2017
Messages
715
Thanks forthe input, I will check that software out. I didn't know there was a way to check dynamic spine other than walk back tuning. That arrow you have plugged in there us pretty darn close to where I ended. I am starting ti think the .204 I'd is better all around just for availability of components like you said.
Ya this is a good chart but using the software is probably 2nd best option to actually shooting and bare shaft arrows through paper and dynamic tuning that way. Then of course applying the proper vanes for your point weight and broadhead.
 
Joined
May 6, 2018
Messages
9,647
Location
Shenandoah Valley
I've read the OP's post and subsequent comments, nodding my head in agreement at most everything....I've built .204's and .166's (using the Valkyrie system and outserts and have had the absolute best luck and consistency in flight and lethal shots on deer, hogs, etc.)...getting both arrow setups to the same 579gr.

So I can shoot both arrows interchangeably with the same sight tape etc...I'm sure some will say that's next to impossible...different spines, FOC, different shape/weight broadheads, etc....but it's worked wonderfully for 2yrs now. However, while the .204's are a cheaper build, even with my Ethics components...wind planing was an issue last month on my KS whitetail hunt...high temps and winds, upwards of 20-35mph winds and gusts.

Fortunately I had both arrow setups with me and luckily realized after some practice shots early in my trip, that the wind was definitely pushing my arrows 6-10inches, even at 30yds. I spot n stalked in to a old warrior buck and put a perfect 30yd shot on him with the micro;s in 25mph winds....something I now realize wouldn't have happened had I stayed with my Easton 5mm with 100gr IW's... <--this setup is legit and when there's no wind...they fly amazing. However, with windy conditions on deer and certainly in the elk woods...I feel like I'd be better off with micro's

Thus, I just can't find a flaw in the micro-diameter setup and intend to switch entirely to micro diameter arrows for next season. Yes, the shafts and components are $$$$, but damn...do they fly well. Even though they're the same total arrow weight...the micro's also seem quieter.

Long rant to say i'm convinced to go full-in on microdiameter...but several valid points were made earlier in the thread about collars and squaring the ends/issues with keeping them square.

Has anyone tried the new Nexxus arrows yet? Adam Greentree's new company...only microdiameters, roughly same price as the valkyrie and X-impacts....

My main complaint with the micro's was mentioned earlier as well...the lighted nocks don't seem even remotely as bright or reliable as the standard size lighted nocks. I love the lighted nocks, but ultimately, arrow flight is more important if I plan to harvest the animal quickly.


Your arrow diameter isn't going to cause arrows to drift 6-10" at 30 yards, not in 25mph winds, especially not with anymore difference in arrow diameter. Your fletching and broadhead are going to have way more to do with wind drift than the arrow diameter. Once you minimize the wind drift with fletching and point, then you can have small gains by going to smaller shafts.


You are saying you can run both a .204 and a .166 without changing your rest?
 

Reburn

Mayhem Contributor
Joined
Feb 10, 2019
Messages
3,405
Location
Central Texas
Your arrow diameter isn't going to cause arrows to drift 6-10" at 30 yards, not in 25mph winds, especially not with anymore difference in arrow diameter. Your fletching and broadhead are going to have way more to do with wind drift than the arrow diameter. Once you minimize the wind drift with fletching and point, then you can have small gains by going to smaller shafts.


You are saying you can run both a .204 and a .166 without changing your rest?

Agreed no way possible that your drifting arrows 6" at 30. Its not physically possible. The wind is drifting the shooter sorry.
 
Joined
Jan 15, 2018
Messages
12
Location
CO
Your arrow diameter isn't going to cause arrows to drift 6-10" at 30 yards, not in 25mph winds, especially not with anymore difference in arrow diameter. Your fletching and broadhead are going to have way more to do with wind drift than the arrow diameter. Once you minimize the wind drift with fletching and point, then you can have small gains by going to smaller shafts.


You are saying you can run both a .204 and a .166 without changing your rest?


Sorry for apparently some confusion on what I was indicating as the solution to my wind drift issues. I wasn't implying the smaller diameter solved the wind drift issue. It was a combination of the .204's having larger vanes, a 2-blade solid broadhead, which definitely planed in the wind...AND a wider shaft.

Alternatively, with the micro diameter arrows, my FOC is substantially higher with Ethics components and a 250gr Valkyrie 3-blade up front and max23 AAE vanes on the back.

The smaller shafts can obviously cut down on the influence the wind has on the arrow, but I also wasn't implying that moving to the smaller diameter shaft solely solved my wind issue. Having the ability to put more weight up front has made numerous improvements to my hunting as well as TAC-style events with long-range shots. This wasn't a one-time occurance, just the most recent example I provided to help address the OP's original question.
 

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