Bruce, yes my friend, the 7 thoughts I shared can be scrutinized with 'What If's' -- Just about anything in life will lean towards this regardless of the subject. The 7 thoughts are solid info & do pertain to elk & elk hunting. Much of hunting elk is done through going with ones gut, this is best done by having countless repeated encounters over a period of many years, this way our guesses are now educated guesses through personal experience & study. Here's a few thoughts along the lines of your comments, thanks!
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OK, I'll play....though right up front I can say that in my experience this elk behavior varies drastically and is dependent on how much hunter pressure they have gotten- IME, the numero uno factor.
The dumbest elk I've found are the ones that have seen the least hunter pressure.
Because hunting pressure or lack of it is a consideration where we choose to hunt we then need to consider tactics that would apply best for that environment. We also should consider the phase of the rut we are hunting & tailor our hunting/calling accordingly.
1) Elk are curious. Yes, but once they have been called to a few times...a lot of them err on the side of safety. I have called bulls that were curious, cows too but the cows were much more wary. Calling cows sometimes works... if those cows are getting pestered they will move towards another herd...taking the bull with them.
I agree cows & bulls alike can become cautious with repeated pressure on them, this does not take away the fact that elk by nature are all of a sudden not a curious animal. This means we as hunters need to be aware of the type of elk we are hunting and also be cautious, we cannot hunt them like unpressured elk. For myself hunting pressured elk calls for creativity on my part!
2) Elk are social and herd animals. Of course. I did shoot one 9 yr old bull- huge body, built like a Belgian stallion- in Utah that wasn't herded up- he was solo during peak rut and he just went in and took a hot cow when he wanted- his downfall. To this day the biggest bodied elk I've ever seen.
Those of us that have hunted for more years than we can remember have come across bulls just like this, I call them 'Bully Bulls' They have their way with a cow in heat & then can isolate themselves once again. It should be noted that this is extremely rare. I've elk hunted over 40 years & can count on one hand the times I've come across such a bull. Bulls like this can be social, it's when we've come across them they weren't but it wouldn't be fair to say they are like that 365 days a year, it would be pure speculation. Our eyes show us for the most part that elk are a herd animal & socialize regularly!
3) Bulls would rather you go to them. For the most part. Pre rut and rutting hard they will range out when they probably shouldn't
The emotion & defensive mindset of a bull for whatever the reason for the day we've found him & has he been hunted yet that year can play a huge part in how far a bull may come to calling. This last season I called a herd bull from his cows 350 yards down a mountain & 250 yards up the otherside straight to me. Now this isn't the norm but it did take place, generally speaking I have to take it to the bull for best results, this is from calling in 100's of bulls over the years of all kinds on OTC elk hunts!
4) All bulls have the instinct to breed come Sept. I've seen some young ones that sure acted like they didn't care- when all the other bulls did. I saw a pair of bulls in Co that were horsing around with each other when there were multiple bulls after a couple of hot cows- weird.
I see similar examples of this same activity every year, bulls can spar for a variety of reasons. Just because we see this sparring while other bulls are in heated competition doesn't mean these subordinate bulls do not have the same urges as the more mature bulls. It's hard to say what has taken place before hunters like us have showed upon the scene? These bulls could have already been forcibly removed like a couple of teenagers & showing their frustration. Tough to say but I'm pretty sure there aren't any gay bulls out there! You can bet your house that All bulls have it in them to want to breed when it's time, problem is many are not chosen by the cows!
5) Herd Bulls will try to keep every cow. mostly true. In some high bull to cow ratio areas its just not possible. I hunted U9 in AZ and there were herds of 30 elk....with a 360" bull and as many as 5 other 6 point bulls just milling around in the herd. I haven't seen that much in any other location
I hear ya, in those larger herds of 20 plus cows it's tough to maintain control over groups as that, point is the herd bull would rather they all stay on board, because some may jump ship does not make him happy or even aware of it! It's up to the lead cow/cows to maintain the structure & order at that time. These cow groups have been together for many months prior to the rut, they know what group they are a part of.
6) Bulls will try to gain every cow but not at the risk of loosing one of their own. I would say for just about every bull, they really don't like to leave their herd. A big dominant bull is actually more likely to leave IME. A bull that just got his tail whipped will try to gather those cows and head out. You just don't know what that bulls state of mind is. I've had them talk right back like they are bad asses...while they are gathering their cows. Sometimes its luck of the draw. Some of those big bulls are smart and don't even take the chance of a confrontation.
Now speaking to this and #1, I have had a bull that was bedded with his cows come sneak in a try to find me [subtle calling]
This implies a hunter giving his best effort to draw a herd bull away with cow calling exclusively. In most cases (depending on distance of caller) the herd bull will give it his best effort through calling to draw this new recruit to the group instead of leaving his cows to hook up a single. -- Reading & evaluating a bulls present mindset is a hunters job. This is done by reading a bulls demeanor. A herd bull with no hot cows will represent a far less defensive attitude than a herd bull with at least one hot cow present. This is where understanding Elk Behavior & Sounds used is a huge asset to the educated hunter. -- Most hunters fail in this regard because they do not know how to Read A Situation through an elks emotion. -- The easiest wat to compare how they feel through sound is to think of how us humans react to a situation. We can talk socially, if annoyed we raise our voice, if annoyance continues we may yell, we can take it a step further & start screaming when totally pissed! Elk are no different, read their emotion & act upon what you're hearing!
7) Herd bulls can be challenged for dominance, but best done when within inside their comfort zone. For sure. If they have an out, they will usually take it. If you can mimic another local bull is best- some of those big bulls are wary of newcomers. You can usually tell when they will walk over towards you and bugle at you....then walk away and bugle...but then when you challenge again...they come towards you and bugle again- a good sign.
Most Herd Bulls with a hot cow or in a defensive mindset will not run when called to in the right area, that area is their destination, if in transition they are likely to continue moving off towards their destination appearing to the hunter that they're running from them. Unless you raise suspicion to them they will defend when need be. If the bull is not defensive then a hunter will reap better rewards by playing on his curiosity. Our calling/raking must be tailored to the bulls mindset we're dealing with. Treating all bulls with the same calling style or tactic will lead to many lost bulls as you try to find the rare one that will cooperate & play along!
I think every scenario is different...and I've heard you say the same. Understanding an elks behavior, vocalizations and body language helps....but even then it doesn't always work.
Agreed, nothing always works! Where would the fun be if it did! But don't think you cannot call in the majority of the bulls, you can, we just need to treat them as individuals, all bulls are not created equal & react exactly the same no matter the situation.
Bruce, thanks! I appreciate your input & felt I should elaborate a bit as well!
ElkNut/Paul
