Elk scouting (on the ground) questions:

[Chris in TN]

Hello,

New poster here. I'm a lifelong deer hunter and squirrel hunter and a little bit of everything else. I've hunted elk a couple of times - first as a kid when I knew absolutely nothing about what I was doing, then later as an adult on several hunts where all I really did was show up in shape and ready to shoot and then do exactly what the guide said.

I want, sometime over the next couple of years, to take whatever opportunities I have to take my kids hunting, especially out west, especially for elk. I've been in or near a pretty good swath of Colorado's USFS ground and am trying to get a feel for some potential future hunting spots.

Let's pretend I have done all the things you would do in e-scouting a new spot. Let's say I have dissected a few thousand acres of whatever unit/forest I plan to hunt (I think that as far as easy-access USFS land goes the questions I'm asking would apply anywhere anyway) and have a grasp (and detailed map, both paper and digital on a device/GPS) of how the various hills and ridges and secondary drainages lay. I know where some meadows are and from Google Earth I can see that these meadows (which might be an acre and might be 50+ or more acres) have spots that hold water at least part of the time (though I get that October is often pretty dry and some holes may be dry). I at least generally expect that the elk that live on this hypothetical mountain will bed in relatively flat timbered benches if they can find them, just above or below these meadows and water holes, during the day. In steep terrain the thermals will likely carry scent uphill to them, though in flatter terrain on a big bench with a strong prevailing wind this may be (?) mitigated. But even then, the elk probably bed within 1/4 mile of the meadows, I assume.

This gets to the crux of my question: Hunting eastern whitetail if I were in a spot like this 1-3 days before season opened, I'd glass the meadow at dawn, then sit tight until about 8AM and then glass my way slowly back to camp (I'm figuring I need to camp maybe a half mile from where I want to hunt, maybe a mile at most - camp will be very simple), then wait until 10AM and go around that meadow looking for deer sign, and if I found it I'd figure out how to approach/exit in the dark, then I'd find a direction that I could get out of there without leaving a lot of scent, and have a plan to return. But here I don't have one wind direction, I have two (assuming a prevailing wind from one direction, likely N or W and a thermal that likely will rise uphill from E). And these aren't farmland whitetails that smell people every day; they are elk that despise human scent.

Do you guys just go in mid-day and make a quick circle around several such meadows and water holes or small ponds, and you either see plenty of obvious sign or nothing at all, then get back out of there? Or is there some smarter way to do this? I'm actually hoping to pick a spot where it's not very easy to glass elk from a distance because I'd think that would mean more people would see them and they'd be more likely to see *me* as I tried to figure out how to get closer to them - not to stalk them, but just to get in/out of morning/evening hunting spots. One of the areas I'm looking at hunting, part of it I fear has a weakness that there's sort of a bowl that could probably be glassed from a ridge a mile or more away, which tells me likely makes it get a lot of pressure because I know I'm not the first person to figure that out. But my biggest fear is doing a lot of things right getting into a thicker/less glass-able area, then spooking a herd the evening before season opens because I was hanging out in the wrong meadow or they smelled where I'd been 3 hours earlier, or two cows came in for a midday drink while I was gawking at tracks. My second biggest fear is hunting a dead spot because I was afraid to spook animals by actually scouting.

So if you're in a new (to you) spot (1st/2nd rifle season in CO, still hot weather by elk standards, no need for them to be migrating which brings on a whole different set of tactics, these are pressured, resident elk) how do you confirm that elk live there and are feeding in particular spots recently.....without scenting up the place? Am I overthinking this?

 

[TradLife406]

So I've been learning a new area I finally drew a tag for.
Previously all my experience has been in thick nasty dark timber where the only way to scout was to bushwhack and hang cameras.

This new area is an optics dream. There's no real easy way to glass it either. It's about three miles into where I've been finding the bachelor bulls.

I'm loving being able to hike the main trails and not having to bushwhack. I can literally sit on the trail and glass. That and I'm working on my merit badge for hiking every trail in the mountain range. Also the area is a very popular recreational area so the elk don't mind someone hiking the trails. I'm putting zero pressure on them. Whereas my old spot it was go up before they hit the summer ground then maybe risk one summer trip to check cameras and cut fire wood for camp. Then stay out until I was actively hunting.

I definitely wouldn't discount glassing to scout. Kinda nice to sit back with your snacks and some alcohol and enjoy the warm summer evenings.

 

[Chris in TN]

As awesome as that sounds there's no way for me to get out there this summer. I live in Tennessee and summer is when I (hopefully) make money to pay for fall trips. I can, however, at least generally make one longer trip in the fall and have an extra day or two to scout if needed.

I realize that a lot of this is a mental game and if I actually get there and glass and find elk it becomes a non-issue, more or less. I also realize that statistically speaking the spots I have in mind *will* hold elk during 1st/2nd rifle season (or at least the night before) simply because they're halfway isolated, as well as any public mountain with OTC tags can be called 'isolated'.

 

[Q_Sertorius]

I’m excited to hear how this works out for you.


____________________
“Keep on keepin’ on…”

 

[Poser]

In this case, use your nose. If you are checking out an area just before the season and you get a strong smell of elk, back out and consider it an area elk are currently using.

 

[Chris in TN]

I like the idea of smelling them. Of course scents always work both ways, sort of, unless I'm downwind of where I smelled them and the winds stay steady for days at a time, which I know they won't.

Would I be correct that in flatter parts of the mountain, on relatively calm days (I know the winds always blow there but it's different early October in nice weather than when a storm is moving in), would it be possible that if I had a decent prevailing wind blowing from the N or W I could get in and see or smell where they'd been and get back out without the thermals pushing my scent uphill (slightly uphill, if I'm on a bench I guess)? I mean part of me thinks that a W wind and an E thermal current would tend to sort of push scent straight up off the mountain, right? And if I did this mid-morning, after everything had moved off the meadows but before the thermals really got moving.....is that workable? I know the answer is highly dependent on exact wind conditions and terrain in terms of slope aspect and steepness and how sunny the day is versus how cold the night was and a ton of smaller factors that change every three minutes in the mountains.

I'm asking these questions partially because the last time I hunted a bull was on private land where they more or less hold elk all season because everyone is fanatical about hunting the wind and keeping scent out of the places the elk actually feed/bed, and it clearly worked for them/me; I saw and shot a bull on my 5th sit in the same spot after watching cows and small bulls every sit. But that was in a place where they've watched elk live in the same spots for many years and obviously I don't have that luxury on public. Also, I don't want to spend all summer noting glassing spots on Google Earth then get out there and find that the timber is taller than I expected and there's 1000 acres I can't glass - I've spent years of my life staring at aerial photos enough to know that you've never actually seen a place until you are there with your own eyes, and what looks like an open meadow on the aerials might have grown up in the last years since the photos were taken, or might burn this summer, and all of my previous experiences have been that everything below the treeline is far more brushy/thick than it looks on aerials.

 

[patagonialuke]

A few thoughts:

(1) I wouldn't count on the elk bedding within 1/4 mile of their feeding area. At least in my experience, I've seen elk regularly travel anywhere from 100 yds to well over a mile from their feeding>bedding zones.

(2) I rarely find myself dealing with significant prevailing winds during the first and last 2-3 hours of light in the mountains, so I'm often just dealing with thermals during those times.

(3) When prevailing winds oppose the thermals (or thermals start switching), that usually causes swirling / unpredictable wind, rather than it going straight up. If I'm only dealing with thermals, the swirling transition periods are basically an alarm clock telling me I need to avoid being directly above or below elk.

(4) I can't think of a scenario where elk busted because they caught scent of where I was before. Maybe that's cause I never realized I spooked them, but I've witnessed many elk use the same game trail I walked on within the past hour (though I still avoid that if possible).

(5) Creek bottoms, drainages, and shaded areas (N & W faces in mornings) often maintain downward thermals for longer in the mornings, and drainages / valleys act as thermal funnels, so they can be helpful travel pathways.

Like you said, it depends on a lot of things.

But to limit your exposure, it may be worth doing your elevation gain/loss a few hundred yards off to the side of where you think the elk went. Then traverse across to look for sign, and traverse back out. If thermals are the main wind factor, being off to the side rather than above/below is often a safer bet. That's how I usually approach feeding zones when I expect elk to access them from above or below.

 

[Chris in TN]

it may be worth doing your elevation gain/loss a few hundred yards off to the side of where you think the elk went. Then traverse across to look for sign, and traverse back out. If thermals are the main wind factor, being off to the side rather than above/below is often a safer bet. That's how I usually approach feeding zones when I expect elk to access them from above or below.

That actually makes sense and as I read your post I was looking at Google Earth and can see how that could work.

I'm loving being able to hike the main trails and not having to bushwhack. I can literally sit on the trail and glass.

Looking over the trail in again......yeah, if I'm willing to bring a spotting scope (I have a decent one, not thrilled about toting it around), I can actually see now how I could do some glassing from the trail in, even a mile or more before I turn off that main trail, and I can also see a few higher spots where I could probably glass midday.

 

[Indian Summer]

There is a natural order of things when you are hunting a new area. You can’t be confident about what’s over there until you know what’s over there. So the first stage of setting foot in a new area is to explore it.

You are on the right track. I’m not looking to crash bedding areas, but I will go to feed areas and learn as much as I can. I look for the best places for elk to enter and exit Meadows. I also follow the trails for a little bit until they all come together on a more heavily used trail. After that I back out and look at the map and try to figure out where that trail is heading. You will always have an impact on elk when you learn an area. But once you know it, you can stay away from the places you need to because you’re confident about your set ups.

 

[tuffcrk14]

Man, there’s so much that could be said here. To keep it short, I’d say A) Do your escouting homework and periodically revisit it and make changes if needed. (Maybe take the escouting course by Mark Livesay?) B) Take as much time off as you feasibly can for scouting before opener C) when you are there and able to scout, be planted somewhere you can glass before sunrise until 10:00-11:00 AM and mid-late afternoon 4:00 PM until the sun sets (Use escouting to find these points.) As for the middle part of the day while scouting, find another glassing knob/ridge/whatever nearby to glass into north faces that have some visibility to see into the timber. I’ve caught elk midday moving around and briefly feeding on north slopes. They would usually be small glimpses, so stay on it as much as you can. Glassing would be key because it keeps your scent down and you’re not expending energy walking all over looking for elk sign. Going from one glassing point to the other could accomplish that too. I’d recommend a tripod and a bino adapter to keep your pack weight low, but be able to really scan an area. Elk are easily visible for a few miles. Even if it’s glimpses in the timber from a mile or more away. I don’t know your prior knowledge, so I’m trying to be unassuming. Good luck!


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[Chris in TN]

I don’t know your prior knowledge, so I’m trying to be unassuming.

I've shot three elk on private land. I've learned to be OCD about scent and to not top a ridge until I catch my breath and I'm pretty confident in my ability to pick stuff apart glassing but I'm much less confident in my ability to find a mountain elk live on and me go up there for 3-4 days and find them but not push them. I have to convince myself to sort of let that go and just trust that they'll be somewhere near where I want them to be (I mean within a 5000 acre block from 8000' to 11000') and if I'm not stupid they'll stay there.

The first bull I killed on private, was on day 2 of a hunt. Morning of day 1 three cows trotted across a meadow out in front of me and I swear it was like seeing unicorns - like, "Oh, THEY *DO* exist!" in my brain. I'm finding myself in that same scenario here. I have to convince myself there will be an elk somewhere within ten miles of where I plan to hunt, and on some level I know that won't happen until the thing is standing in a meadow in front of me.

 

[tuffcrk14]

I don’t know your prior knowledge, so I’m trying to be unassuming.

I've shot three elk on private land. I've learned to be OCD about scent and to not top a ridge until I catch my breath and I'm pretty confident in my ability to pick stuff apart glassing but I'm much less confident in my ability to find a mountain elk live on and me go up there for 3-4 days and find them but not push them. I have to convince myself to sort of let that go and just trust that they'll be somewhere near where I want them to be (I mean within a 5000 acre block from 8000' to 11000') and if I'm not stupid they'll stay there.

The first bull I killed on private, was on day 2 of a hunt. Morning of day 1 three cows trotted across a meadow out in front of me and I swear it was like seeing unicorns - like, "Oh, THEY *DO* exist!" in my brain. I'm finding myself in that same scenario here. I have to convince myself there will be an elk somewhere within ten miles of where I plan to hunt, and on some level I know that won't happen until the thing is standing in a meadow in front of me.

Sometimes I feel like I’d have better odds of finding Sasquatch!


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[gelton]

If you want to know where the bulls are before migration, think like an elk. Look for areas during midday where an elk could bed and get thermals from several different draws in a single spot. Don't worry about feeding areas, as I have seen elk go right past them and travel down to the bottom of a 10,000-foot mountain at night to fornicate, and then go right back up to the top before daybreak. Their job is survival, and they are good at it. Play the wind isn't a misnomer; it's just that they play the wind better than the average Joe (including me) can fathom.

 

[Chris in TN]

Instead of starting another thread I'll sort of piggyback some related questions here:

-Looking at a burn from maybe 2 years ago. I know elk will be back in them quickly, but how long do these burned areas (from aerials I'm guessing it was a hot fire) stay open-ish before they grow back up into browse/cover than you can't see into from good glassing points?

-Looking at areas with downed timber. GE historical imagery indicates the timber has been downed for 10 years or more. Am I correct that after 5-7 years the timber will be less of a hindrance to walking and the problem will become the degree to which the understory has grown back? This one spot, there's timber down everywhere, but it's all down on 10+ year old photography.

 

[spike camp]

Am I overthinking this?

Yup.
Forget basically everything you have learned while hunting whitetail, because for the most part it won’t apply.

Elk, are where they are.

 

[Pony Soldier]

I had one year when the elk fed every night on the median of the interstate. By daylight they were five miles away bedded just below the top of the ridge, 1,500 ft higher.

I had to follow their tracks for a couple of days to fully understand their pattern. Then they changed it and I got to start over.

 

[Chris in TN]

Yup.
Forget basically everything you have learned while hunting whitetail, because for the most part it won’t apply.

Elk, are where they are.

So that brings me to another stupid question.

Typing this out, I know it's stupid. But I have to ask so i don't find myself on the side of a mountain second guessing myself.

I hear 'north facing slopes' all the time. Especially for first rifle when it's still hot by elk standards.

What if I'm looking at a huge bench where there are very few steeper north slopes and most are only a very few degrees of slope, burned over timber with smaller regrowth, some taller stuff in patches but it just isn't 'north facing' and an elk might have to go a mile or more to find such slopes?

Am I correct that they'll still use such areas, and just bed where the ground tends to favor the north even by a few degrees, as long as it's dark/cool there, even if it's a little 1-5 acre pocket?

 

[spike camp]

So that brings me to another stupid question.

Typing this out, I know it's stupid. But I have to ask so i don't find myself on the side of a mountain second guessing myself.

I hear 'north facing slopes' all the time. Especially for first rifle when it's still hot by elk standards.

What if I'm looking at a huge bench where there are very few steeper north slopes and most are only a very few degrees of slope, burned over timber with smaller regrowth, some taller stuff in patches but it just isn't 'north facing' and an elk might have to go a mile or more to find such slopes?

Am I correct that they'll still use such areas, and just bed where the ground tends to favor the north even by a few degrees, as long as it's dark/cool there, even if it's a little 1-5 acre pocket?

Elk will use a north slope, as much as they use every other slope facing all directions.

For the most part, elk are always moving so one mile isn’t even on their radar.
If it’s a spot they favor, they’ll make their way to it.

In my opinion, I think you’re trying too hard to pin point a location.
Think bigger.
Elk will be miles from where they were yesterday and not even think about it.

Terrain will dictate a lot and elk certainly favor certain areas more than others, but elk will be…where they be.

 

[patagonialuke]

Am I correct that they'll still use such areas, and just bed where the ground tends to favor the north even by a few degrees, as long as it's dark/cool there, even if it's a little 1-5 acre pocket?

I don't have experience with burned areas, but FWIW, the main zone I hunted last year was generally SW facing. But there were tons of sub-drainages coming down the face that produce small sections of NW-facing dense timber or sparse aspen groves. Of the few confirmed bedding areas I found, almost all were in those slivers of slightly N-facing terrain.

But, to echo what's said above, these are generalizations, and there were also elk in spots that didn't fit that criteria. E.g., a few herds regularly spent the whole day in an isolated (but highly visible) open bowl at 12,000', essentially above treeline, apart from some sparse, small pines. I assume they stay there because they're extremely hard to get to without an intruder being noticed (speaking from experience...), it's generally a bit cooler than it was lower in the valley, and they had both feed and water in one spot. It doesn't fit the classic description of a bedding area, but there were elk there throughout archery season, most of last summer, and the past month.

 

[Chris in TN]

Thank you all.

I took my kids whitewater rafting this morning. The youngest asked a hundred questions in the previous 24 hours about rafting and it crossed my mind I'm sort of doing the same thing trying to prepare to elk hunt 'on my own'. So much that I simply don't know and won't know until I'm looking back on it.