ELD-M, ELD-X, TMK, Berger: Which reliably exits?

hereinaz

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From a scholarly review of wound trauma:

In the most general terms, wounding will likely be limited to a short distance beyond the permanent cavity if the projectile lost a relatively small amount of energy as it penetrated. This may be because the projectile had relatively low impact energy, because it did not expand quickly to sharply increase local forces, and/or because it penetrated through-and-through without losing a lot of energy. In contrast, high impact energy, an expanded projectile, or a projectile stopped in tissue suggest the possibility of more extensive wounding.

There, the article is considering nerve damage, blood vessel damage, and other injuries that will not directly cause death in humans or animals.

——————

The potential for temporary cavitation to cause wound trauma is related to the anatomical location of the bullet path, the degree of bullet fragmentation (if any) and the size of the temporary cavity, usually expressed in a maximum diameter or volume.
There, the article says that the temporary cavitation grows with more fragmentation as the “energy dumped” into the soft tissue causes a greater pressure wave.

It also notes that fragmentation of the bullet can cause more trauma when it passes through the soft tissue that is compressed at the edge of the cavity, so the small fragments are cutting more tissue.

It’s the difference between stabbing a piece of foam while it is expanded, the hole is the size of the knife. But, when the foam is compressed the knife cuts much more, so that when it expands the hole is much larger than the blade.

Additionally, when the energy is dumped into soft tissue that is filled with liquid, the liquid doesn’t compress and so it creates an even greater wave and cavitation.

Physics says that “dumping the energy” in an inelastic fluid dense tissue will create an “explosive” action rupturing the tissue holding the fluids.

That is why hunters regularly say “the lungs were jellied” by a match bullet.

Jelly the lungs with a shot behind the shoulder, and you don’t need to do tracking. I never have.

You want a pass through, fine. You can have it. But, you can’t have jellied lungs unless it is a big fragmenting bullet that passes through. Or, velocity is high, meaning, you are close.

This is just one article. I will dig up more.

 
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I currently shoot the 150 eldx out of my 7mm-08, mv 2790. I’ve consistently had exits on deer, elk, and antelope.
Same with the 140 Partition at 2880 fps mv.
Same with the 140 AB at 2850 fps mv.
Unless I’m too close.

I think it’s more about placement and velocity than bullet. The faster it goes (assuming non-FMJ) the more violently and quickly the bullet will deform, thereby slowing down more rapidly, thereby lowering the odds of an exit.

Also, blowing up the shoulder knuckle tends to deform and fragment a bullet, leading to momentum loss. So no exit.

Shot through the lungs at modest velocity, you’re more likely to see two holes.





P
 

SwiftShot

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Having an exit is nice. Perfect shots and it doesn't matter. Hell a perfect shot and it dies from a 22LR.

If you want pass through an all copper bullet or a partition are good choices. Hornady CX or Barnes will work.
I wonder how many of those no pass through guys, say missed him because there is no blood and just go on hunting?
 
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The concussive wave, temporary wound channel, or technically, the temporary cavitation of soft tissue doesn’t cause any permanent damage that would lead to death unless it shocks the central nervous system.

I will have to pull together the research, but trauma room surgeons, technical reviews and scholarly research is that skin and soft tissue is so flexible that it just stretches and returns to its shape without damage.

Size doesn’t matter when velocity is high. Think about how much energy it takes to break apart the bullet into tiny pieces, and that is happening inside soft tissue.

It is counterintuitive that smaller particles cause more damage, but you have to consider the fact that they don’t immediately break into the smallest particles.

Ballistic jelly is just like soft tissue. It expands and then contracts. If you examine the jelly, only the jelly cut by the bullet is damaged. The rest is intact.

Blood shot meat is just bruised as if it got punched hard. I fell on my leg carrying a 100 pound pack and it was blood shot and sore, but there was no chance of death from it.

At first, the match bullet is breaking apart into large petals and pieces like the copper bullets, then breaking apart more and more.

As it breaks apart like this, ALL the tissue is smashed and cut. A copper bullet breaks apart and the petals don’t break up again.

Think about any bullet that smashes the shoulder blade and carries all the bone fragments that cause more damage. The more pieces the better.

It’s not that copper bullets or other bullets don’t kill, it’s that they operate differently on the soft tissue. Choosing them for a personal reason or legal reason like lead free, won’t ever get a side eye from me.

One could make the arguments, and many do make the arguments that you make. I believed and made the arguments too. I had to be convinced that it wasn’t accurate.

In the end, I am a “show me the score board” guy. The 77 gr Sierra TMK thread was enough to settle the question once and for all in my mind about what damage a match bullet does.

I think we are mostly in agreement, I just didn’t articulate my point very well.

FWIW I shoot Bergers. My most recent experience is with an antelope I shot at 220 yards. It was a frontal shot with a 156 EOL at a MV of 3150.

When field dressing, everything lungs forward was pretty much destroyed. There were a couple of tiny fragments that made it through the diaphragm into the liver, but I don’t believe they contributed much to the kill as it was pretty much instant. The heart literally fell out of the chest cavity as we were dressing it. The entire top of it was disconnected from everything.


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From a scholarly review of wound trauma:

In the most general terms, wounding will likely be limited to a short distance beyond the permanent cavity if the projectile lost a relatively small amount of energy as it penetrated. This may be because the projectile had relatively low impact energy, because it did not expand quickly to sharply increase local forces, and/or because it penetrated through-and-through without losing a lot of energy. In contrast, high impact energy, an expanded projectile, or a projectile stopped in tissue suggest the possibility of more extensive wounding.

There, the article is considering nerve damage, blood vessel damage, and other injuries that will not directly cause death in humans or animals.

——————

The potential for temporary cavitation to cause wound trauma is related to the anatomical location of the bullet path, the degree of bullet fragmentation (if any) and the size of the temporary cavity, usually expressed in a maximum diameter or volume.
There, the article says that the temporary cavitation grows with more fragmentation as the “energy dumped” into the soft tissue causes a greater pressure wave.

It also notes that fragmentation of the bullet can cause more trauma when it passes through the soft tissue that is compressed at the edge of the cavity, so the small fragments are cutting more tissue.

It’s the difference between stabbing a piece of foam while it is expanded, the hole is the size of the knife. But, when the foam is compressed the knife cuts much more, so that when it expands the hole is much larger than the blade.

Additionally, when the energy is dumped into soft tissue that is filled with liquid, the liquid doesn’t compress and so it creates an even greater wave and cavitation.

Physics says that “dumping the energy” in an inelastic fluid dense tissue will create an “explosive” action rupturing the tissue holding the fluids.

That is why hunters regularly say “the lungs were jellied” by a match bullet.

Jelly the lungs with a shot behind the shoulder, and you don’t need to do tracking. I never have.

You want a pass through, fine. You can have it. But, you can’t have jellied lungs unless it is a big fragmenting bullet that passes through. Or, velocity is high, meaning, you are close.

This is just one article. I will dig up more.



I disagree with the underlined part of your post. Barnes bullets (generally) do not fragment but they will certainly “jellify” the lungs.


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None of those mentioned will guarantee an exit and likely won’t most times. The ELDX will have the best chance at milder velocities.

I, like you prefer an exit. The old “dump all the energy in the animal” is old wives tale hogwash. By the time a bullet exits it’s done most if not all of it potential tissue crushing damage. It’s not going to do any more damage by staying inside the animal.


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Shoot2hunt ballistic podcast

i suggest you listen to this podcast. It addresses wives tales, Fudd lore, etc.

Exit wounds are great, but having animals die in sight is better. The latter has been my experience with 140gr eldm's and now 108eldm's. And fyi 140eldm's seem to exit regularly (which coincides with Form's info in the podcast)
 
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Having an exit is nice. Perfect shots and it doesn't matter. Hell a perfect shot and it dies from a 22LR.

If you want pass through an all copper bullet or a partition are good choices. Hornady CX or Barnes will work.
I wonder how many of those no pass through guys, say missed him because there is no blood and just go on hunting?

While I cannot speak for the others, I know for me that never happens because 1) I can spot my shots. Low recoil, good stock ergos, and good glass mean I can stay on target through the shot and see my impacts. 2) I can hear my impacts. One of the most underrated parts of hunting with a suppressor is being able to hear the bullet impact the animal. 3) The part you are missing about the "no blood" comments is the rest of the statement where the animal only goes 10-40 yards, so there is no need for a blood trail.
 

hereinaz

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I disagree with the underlined part of your post. Barnes bullets (generally) do not fragment but they will certainly “jellify” the lungs.


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Yes. I agree at high enough velocity, solids and bonded/interlock bullets will jellify, but the physical mechanism won’t do it consistently across velocity bands like the match bullets.

It is like at excessive velocity, match bullets don’t penetrate enough before fragmenting at excessive velocities. Going over 3100 fps keeps that problem from happening.

Match bullets aren’t magic, neither are bonded or mono. Both come with pro/con based on tradeoffs for the bullet designs.

I am just trying to dispel the myths about match bullet performance. I don’t have experience nor have done research on bonded mono, but they obviously kill.

And, here I am specifically, trying to explain why hinters won’t be guaranteed the exits with match bullets. But, a benefit in the tradeoff is for the type of catastrophic tissue destruction from “dumping energy” into the animal.

If a hunter wants exits, don’t choose a match bullet. But, there is a tradeoff, you won’t get the performance.
 

hereinaz

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I think we are mostly in agreement, I just didn’t articulate my point very well.

FWIW I shoot Bergers. My most recent experience is with an antelope I shot at 220 yards. It was a frontal shot with a 156 EOL at a MV of 3150.

When field dressing, everything lungs forward was pretty much destroyed. There were a couple of tiny fragments that made it through the diaphragm into the liver, but I don’t believe they contributed much to the kill as it was pretty much instant. The heart literally fell out
I get that it is hard to explain things. Good discussions always have some of that give and take. I learn things every time, including this thread to broaden my knowledge from you.

You point above is why exits are irrelevant to me. The odds of needing a blood trail to track are pretty slim.

I get why someone would want exits, because I do agree that bad shots with match bullets won’t be as likely to leave a blood trail. That is always in my mind.
 

Wacko

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I'm not one to get into these posts.....but here I go. For those that say you don't need a blood trail or tracking if your animal only goes 50 yards are only speaking from their area of operation and experience. 50 yards in some country with no blood, and no track to follow...means no recovery.

Example: Texas thornbrush in the hill country. Thorns over 2" long, so thick you can't "push" through it. Shoot a pig from a group of pigs and let him go "somewhere" in there....you ain't going to look long if you have nothing to go on.

I'll take an exit if I can get one. If a 140 ELD-M has a high possibility...good. Scenars are a good choice it seems too. Might not be quite as dramatic a wound but a good chance at an exit.

Like has been said, the wounding is awesome with the soft bullets. Not every animal respects that and sometimes will travel after a hit. Not every shot is "perfect" either. Every bullet choice has some compromise.

Just my 2 cents....
 

hereinaz

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I'm not one to get into these posts.....but here I go. For those that say you don't need a blood trail or tracking if your animal only goes 50 yards are only speaking from their area of operation and experience. 50 yards in some country with no blood, and no track to follow...means no recovery.

Example: Texas thornbrush in the hill country. Thorns over 2" long, so thick you can't "push" through it. Shoot a pig from a group of pigs and let him go "somewhere" in there....you ain't going to look long if you have nothing to go on.

I'll take an exit if I can get one. If a 140 ELD-M has a high possibility...good. Scenars are a good choice it seems too. Might not be quite as dramatic a wound but a good chance at an exit.

Like has been said, the wounding is awesome with the soft bullets. Not every animal respects that and sometimes will travel after a hit. Not every shot is "perfect" either. Every bullet choice has some compromise.

Just my 2 cents....
Exactly, you point out tradeoffs of the pro/con. Context is important, especially what I have heard about thornbush…

I would say that if I were shooting inside 200 yards, I could still shoot a match bullet out of my long range 7mm shooting a 180 grain VLD and get exits.

But, I wouldn’t need the long range potential of a 7mm and on a trip to Texas, I could see myself shooting a 6mm bonded or mono at high velocity.
 

Leverwalker

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Following with interest. Shooting a 45-70, with a wide meplat bullet of around 18 BHN and 400 grains, I depend on nothing but a wound channel clean through, same size in as out, traveling a mere 1400 fps. If I really want to anchor it, though it wastes some meat, I hit the shoulder.
 
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I'm not one to get into these posts.....but here I go. For those that say you don't need a blood trail or tracking if your animal only goes 50 yards are only speaking from their area of operation and experience. 50 yards in some country with no blood, and no track to follow...means no recovery.

Example: Texas thornbrush in the hill country. Thorns over 2" long, so thick you can't "push" through it. Shoot a pig from a group of pigs and let him go "somewhere" in there....you ain't going to look long if you have nothing to go on.

I'll take an exit if I can get one. If a 140 ELD-M has a high possibility...good. Scenars are a good choice it seems too. Might not be quite as dramatic a wound but a good chance at an exit.

Like has been said, the wounding is awesome with the soft bullets. Not every animal respects that and sometimes will travel after a hit. Not every shot is "perfect" either. Every bullet choice has some compromise.

Just my 2 cents....

The only shot that will reliably render animals dead where they stand is a CNS hit (brain or spinal). If you don't want to track animals, hit the central nervous system and kill them on the spot.
 
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I disagree with the underlined part of your post. Barnes bullets (generally) do not fragment but they will certainly “jellify” the lungs.


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That has not been my experience in the few I've shot with barnes. Punctured, yes, jelly, no. Seemed to act like a very fast field point.
 
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That has not been my experience in the few I've shot with barnes. Punctured, yes, jelly, no. Seemed to act like a very fast field point.

Yep. And how do you get that with dang-near guaranteed certainty? Shoot something manageable enough to put the bullet right where you want it every time. That takes practice and full understanding of the weapons system and the animal you are hunting. It also means passing up some shots. Not everyone is capable of that due to time, money, or other factors. As soon as you are capable of being completely honest with yourself, humble enough to keep learning, and learning from your mistakes, you will become a more effective hunter.
 
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SCHUNTER73

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My experience is with 162 gr ELD-X on southern white tails. I have shot 3 With this bullet between 180-220 yards. All shot right behind the shoulder, mostly broadside. 2 were DRT, one ran about 15 yards into a thicket and died. 2 of the 3 exited the other side.
 

DiabeticKripple

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I shoot Barnes for a few reasons.

My hunting style is anywhere from 50-250yd stand hunting for whitetails, to 600yd open prairie shots on elk and mulies.

I want a bullet that can hit bone and still exit. The perfect broadside shot isn’t always available and sometimes I need to go through a shoulder.

Every animal I have shot with a Barnes bullet has died very quickly. Mostly bang flops or in a couple cases the deer ran 40yds into the bush and died. Great blood trail on all animals.

Every time the lungs have been turned to jelly. I’m talking pieces falling out when gutting.

When used within the proper velocity ranges, copper bullets are very devastating.

Here is the entrance and exit on a young WT buck taken with a 130gr TTSX shot out of a Tikka 308. Entrance was just behind the shoulder on the left side of the deer, exit is mid body.
 

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Wacko

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Who tracks pigs?





P
Some land owners require it. The carcasses attract too many predators on working cattle / whitetail ranches. The one I hunt has a carcass pit...keeps them in one location...makes finding coyotes easier too!
 
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