Dumping my 10mm & going 9mm

[Pilsner]

Put the 10mm in a drop leg, cinch the rig up tight to your belt and tighten it down to your thigh. Forget the 9 for bear, forget the chest or on the bino harness, fix that drop leg correctly and you won’t worry about the ounces.

There was a reason that nearly every infantry soldier and unit I ever worked with ditched drop leg holsters around 2007-ish: chafing! a strap around your thigh while hiking/rucking many miles very, very quickly became painful. Especially about day 3 when the strap has become saturated with salt from absorbing sweat. It becomes very much like 80 grit sandpaper. YMMV.
I still like them for activities that don't have me hiking as much though - they are about perfect for riding the quad or a horse, and I like that they sit below my backpack's waist band and my body armor's side SAAPI plates (thankfully I am past the wearing body armor for work point in life).
ounces = pounds, pounds = pain. That is true no matter where you carry those ounces.
-Doc

 

[Pilsner]

This argument always seems to go to one extreme or the other...with niether side typically have first hand, in field evidence to support their opinion, just stories or articles pointing one way or the other.
As most folks that get into these debates, I've never had to shoot a charging bear or even been close enough to one to have concern so take this purely acedemic opinion. After much reading and discussion over last few years my take is this:

If you feel comfortable carrying 9mm in griz country for defense and having that pistol gives you the peace of mind to enjoy your time there more without feeling like your being hunted or in constant danger...then go for it.
Same with the 10mm, .44, .454, .460 or .500
Proper shot placement with any will do the trick if need be.
The specifics of the scenario will dictate how it all works out. In some instances it doesn't matter what your carrying, you may not even get a chance to pull the trigger...in others you may have time to prepare and aim well before things go south...I think its all about what you are confident shooting and hitting your mark with in a rushed and high adrenaline situation, within reason of course. I wouldnt consider anything less than 9mm as effective bear defense. Though I'm sure someone's great grandma killed a 10ft bear that was eating her chickens with a .22LR head shot somewhere along the line.

yup.

Grizzly with a .22 Caliber

Bella Twin was a calm, quiet, clear-headed Cree woman with a trap line. May 10, 1957, she killed a massive grizzly bear with her Cooey Ace #1 .22. That was near Slave Lake, Alberta, and the bear Twin killed turned out to be a world record that stood for a good long time.

bear-hunting.com

 

[StuckInTheEast]

yup.

Grizzly with a .22 Caliber

Bella Twin was a calm, quiet, clear-headed Cree woman with a trap line. May 10, 1957, she killed a massive grizzly bear with her Cooey Ace #1 .22. That was near Slave Lake, Alberta, and the bear Twin killed turned out to be a world record that stood for a good long time.

bear-hunting.com

Pretty sure I've read that somewhere along the line. Might have been posted here before...probably why that scenario came to mind. Good read though.

 

[Jellymon1]

Just watched a few videos on this bullet. Still not sure what it does that many others don’t. The biggest selling point seemed to be less smoke compared to hardcast, but I’ve never noticed any extra smoke from hardcast loads.

 

[Thegman]

Hopefully they get the damn things delisted and back on the tag rosters. Maybe getting shot at and hunted on the regular will readjust their attitudes towards humans...or at least thin them out a bit.

I think this is a valid point. There are way more grizzlies where I live than anywhere in the lower 48, but there are very seldom issues with them, in fact, you hardly ever see them. Occasionally 2 year olds get themselves shot around people's places, but the season is open 365 days a year so any bears that don't give people a wide berth, don't live very long. I'd bet that lower 48 grizzlies have much less fear/respect of people and on a per-encounter basis, are probably more dangerous.

 

[Thegman]

Most likely the bear will be eating your face before you even start to grab for your pistol anyway. I don't think the caliber matters. If the noise doesn't scare them, you are screwed most of the time.

This might have been tongue-in-cheek, but it's completely wrong according to actual handguns-used-in-bear-defense incidents

 

[rodney482]

what 9mm round you using for grizz?

 

[Jellymon1]

This might have been tongue-in-cheek, but it's completely wrong according to actual handguns-used-in-bear-defense incidents

Maybe that’s because the ones that didn’t get a chance to draw didn’t survive to share their story or their cartridge choice. It would make sense that the majority of recorded incidents are from scenarios that ended favorably.

 

[NEPkaspot]

Following. I made the same decision to switch to 9mm. I just shoot my G45 better. Interested in trying the Razco options.

 

[Thegman]

Maybe that’s because the ones that didn’t get a chance to draw didn’t survive to share their story or their cartridge choice. It would make sense that the majority of recorded incidents are from scenarios that ended favorably.

Fatalities from bears are almost always big news, reported and documented, especially in this day and age. What is stated above is not what the evidence suggests, at all. If this was the most common case in handgun use for bear defense, such incidents should be easy to find, but they're not.

 

[z987k]

what 9mm round you using for grizz?

lehigh extreme penetrator is what I'd chose if I was carrying 9mm. Which I'm not against, I'm just partial to revolvers and also don't feel the need for another expensive handgun.

 

[z987k]

Just watched a few videos on this bullet. Still not sure what it does that many others don’t. The biggest selling point seemed to be less smoke compared to hardcast, but I’ve never noticed any extra smoke from hardcast loads.

Ya, or lead dust. I'd like to see what they're shooting that has a problem with that.

Maybe they've got a 44-40 loaded with black powder.

 

[longrangelead]

Same here.
When G9 released the Woodsman, I bought a 9mm for EDC and bear. The G9 ammo is pretty spicy in a G29, plus 9mm offers enough penetration to get the job done as well as I shoot it better.

I saw a 6 foot black bear finished with a 9mm Woodsman. Slightly angled through the chest broadside from 8 feet. It zipped right through as advertised displacing enough tissue it was over in seconds.
meat damage was minimal, looked like a Barnes hole, lungs looked like a 12ga slug went through though.

 

[Montucky]

Anyone using the Razco Chest Setup; are you able to adjust is down & to the side so it’s let’s say mid ribs & just above your pack belt & out of the way of Bino Harness….??

 

[Montucky]

Also found this method….I would just have to move stuff around & get used to carrying differently……

 

[Clauz]

9mm is cheaper and very effective with modern hollow points. Use 9mm for people and small critters, and 10mm for big critters that would like to gut you like hogs or bears.

 

[Yoder]

This might have been tongue-in-cheek, but it's completely wrong according to actual handguns-used-in-bear-defense incidents

I just doubt the skill of most people when it comes to drawing and shooting a handgun under extreme stress. If you haven't practiced your draw and first shot on target about 1k times, you won't do it under pressure, and you will most likely miss. I can't tell you how many times I've missed at point blank range at a pistol competition, and nobody was trying to kill me. I just think too many people think they are safe, just because they are carrying a gun. They obsess about caliber, brand, holster design then they don't practice.

 

[Tod osier]

I just doubt the skill of most people when it comes to drawing and shooting a handgun under extreme stress. If you haven't practiced your draw and first shot on target about 1k times, you won't do it under pressure, and you will most likely miss. I can't tell you how many times I've missed at point blank range at a pistol competition, and nobody was trying to kill me. I just think too many people think they are safe, just because they are carrying a gun. They obsess about caliber, brand, holster design then they don't practice.

He is basing his argument on the fact that handguns have proven pretty effective the past several years against bear attack, not on a hypothetical.

 

[Yoder]

He is basing his argument on the fact that handguns have proven pretty effective the past several years against bear attack, not on a hypothetical.

My biggest point is guys worry about all of the nonsense that doesn't matter then don't practice. Which is typical for most things. You can't buy skill.

 

[Thegman]

I just doubt the skill of most people when it comes to drawing and shooting a handgun under extreme stress. If you haven't practiced your draw and first shot on target about 1k times, you won't do it under pressure, and you will most likely miss. I can't tell you how many times I've missed at point blank range at a pistol competition, and nobody was trying to kill me. I just think too many people think they are safe, just because they are carrying a gun. They obsess about caliber, brand, holster design then they don't practice.

As @Tod osier stated, it's about what the evidence we have indicates typically happens, not what we "think" or "feel" might happen.

Handgun Defenses Against Bear Attacks - 170 Documented Incidents, 98% Effective

There are now 170 documented cases, with 146 of those cases where handguns only are fired in defense against bear attacks. Handguns are effective 98% of the time.

www.ammoland.com

I agree about the caliber/cartridge debates over it. There was time 44 Magnum was commonly considered the minimum and even "marginal". Now that same conversation often revolves around 10mm.