Drop camp boundaries on public land?

[324matt]

I booked a drop camp hunt in CO for this year. I was talking to the outfitter and telling him where I had been e-scouting and he said that the area I am talking about is not within my camps boundaries and that another outfitters drop camp hunters hunt that area.

It’s in the middle of public land. You can literally walk 10miles in any direction and it’s all, public, land.

Am I missing something? I will respect the outfitter and the other hunters, but I wasn’t aware of boundaries on public land.

What’s to stop a guy from parking at a public parking spot and walking in and just throwing up a floorless tent? Can a outfitter kick a hunter off of public land in CO? Didn’t elkshape just go through this in NM?

Can someone explain this to me?

 

[S.Clancy]

Outfitters are generally limited to certain areas, usually defined by Sections or major topography, by the lease the operate under with the land management agency (BLM, USFS, etc). The outfitter in question likely cant drop camp you where you want because it is outside his lease. Get ahold of the other outfitter and you're good to go.

 

[324matt]

Outfitters are generally limited to certain areas, usually defined by Sections or major topography, by the lease the operate under with the land management agency (BLM, USFS, etc). The outfitter in question likely cant drop camp you where you want because it is outside his lease. Get ahold of the other outfitter and you're good to go.

Yes I understand that. But there’s no rule or law to stop me from hunting wherever I want to on public land as long as I’m in the correct unit?

 

[S.Clancy]

Yes I understand that. But there’s no rule or law to stop me from hunting wherever I want to on public land as long as I’m in the correct unit?

Nope.

 

[sndmn11]

Yes I understand that. But there’s no rule or law to stop me from hunting wherever I want to on public land as long as I’m in the correct unit?

correct

 

[Scottf270]

The two outfitters probably have a "gentlemans" agreement. Nothing to stop a guy from walking in and setting up shop in the same area. Some would not do that knowing other camps are there. Some would go in anyway and take their chances. It's a person's choice. I have hunted a few areas I knew were gonna be a bust due to crowding, but I wasn't gonna be kept out.

 

[BigAntlerGetter]

Outfitter here.

Ok so we have permit areas we are allowed to operate in, sometimes a ridge is all that separates us from the other outfitter. Now we are not allowed to leave our permit area for commercial operations even if it is our client that crossed into another outfitters permit. So typically out of respect for the other outfitters WE won’t encroach on others permits. Personally, i inform hunters of my boundaries and other outfitters camps if I know they have clients but I cannot tell you you cannot go hunt over there. What I can tell you is “if you cross that ridge and kill ur bull in the bottom on the other side, YOU must bring the bull back to the top of the ridge onto my side before I can pack it out for you” sometimes we can call the other outfitter and let them know the situation and they have 3 options, grant us permission to access there permit to get ur animal, tell us to stick it and charge you to pack the animal out themselves or tell you tough luck you gotta pack it urself. Typically if that outfitter has hunters in his camp he’s not gonna let that ur outfitter access ur bull. Not one outfitter can kick you off of public land, we pay to use the land but not own it. If ur outfitter asked you not to go over there it is probably because the relationship with the other outfitter is rocky and they know what the answer would be if you harvested over there. It’s a tough game but with how the permit system is it’s to monitor each outfitter and their usage. Also helps cut down on illegal guiding and packing. In my permit I know my guides obviously and my packers so running into someone on the trail that’s obviously guiding and stuff I can have knowledge of.

Anyone can hike into any where and camp, it’s a grey area with an outfitters camp spot, technically we have to set up right there, thats “our” spot, if you came in and set up we can ask you to move your tent 300 yards from our registered spot. Especially if our camp is already set up and someone comes in sets up camp within our camp. But can’t kick you out of an area.

If you hiked into the other outfitters permit and he ran into you he cannot tell you to leave either it’s public land.


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[thomas67]

Good explanation.

 

[MallardSX2]

Outfitter here.


Anyone can hike into any where and camp, it’s a grey area with an outfitters camp spot, technically we have to set up right there, thats “our” spot, if you came in and set up we can ask you to move your tent 300 yards from our registered spot. Especially if our camp is already set up and someone comes in sets up camp within our camp. But can’t kick you out of an area.

Its one thing if you have your wall tent set up well before the season and I'm sure you guys have your camps established prior to the opener so I am sure this rarely happens.

BUT, if I am set up on the first day of the season and you come in on the second day of the season with 6 horses and all your gear and tell me to move because this is your "registered spot" that would be a major issue for me.....and I wont be moving...just saying.

 

[IdahoElk]

Yes I understand that. But there’s no rule or law to stop me from hunting wherever I want to on public land as long as I’m in the correct unit?

You can walk where ever you want but if you don't want to run into other hunters you may want to listen to your outfitter or do your own thing.

 

[BigAntlerGetter]

Its one thing if you have your wall tent set up well before the season and I'm sure you guys have your camps established prior to the opener so I am sure this rarely happens.

BUT, if I am set up on the first day of the season and you come in on the second day of the season with 6 horses and all your gear and tell me to move because this is your "registered spot" that would be a major issue for me.....and I wont be moving...just saying.

That’s fine, most agencies require the outfitter to have some sort of signage for identification of the site, we have signs we place a few weeks before the season stating that the spot is “reserved” for our outfitting company per the USFS with our name permit number, contact and USFS agent contact in case there are any issues. We always notify our agent once our signs are up so they have a heads up if anyone calls them. In the past we have come into our spot to set camp for the upcoming season. There was someone in our spot, we were just setting camp so wasn’t a huge issue, the guys were there for first rifle and we weren’t bringing clients until 2nd rifle. I spoke with the guys and told them I was going to take pictures of the area and cache my gear while they were there. The pictures were so that if there was damage to the area we could prove it was not us and not get a fine. I had no problems with them using the area and hunting there. I asked them to keep it clean and follow the USFS rules as far as damaging a camp area, and if they would just keep an eye on my cache while they were there. I came back early the day after the season to the guys packing up their gear for a long haul out, they were not successful but worked their tails off trying to get elk. Everything was in order and we started setting up our camp. I ended up packing their gear down the mountain for them and dropping it at the trailhead as a thank you for being cooperative and understanding.

On the other hand I’ve had the same things happen and guys get puffed up in the chest with me. After trying to explain what we were doing and that we weren’t going to setup and would be back the day after the season I got the “you outfitters just think you own the fu$&:n land” and many other choice words. I started taking pictures as always and the guys kept getting louder and louder and more and more irate. So I told the guy I didn’t trust my gear being up there with them, and they could enjoy their hunt if he back the day after the season to setup, reminded them of the USFS rules and I got a “fu$k ur rules” I left. Came back the day after the season to a camp site with trash everywhere, the axe stuck in a tree, several smaller live pine trees cut down for firewood, and a carving in an Aspen “fu$k outfitters and fu$k the USFS”. Guess those guys didn’t know the USFS does ride in with us at times to check our camps, luckily for those guys they were all still there waiting for me to give me a piece of their mind… after it was all said and done and the USFS gave them a piece of their mind and tickets I still offered to pack their gear down the mountain. They declined.

If an outfitter is coming in 2 days after the season started they most likely aren’t going to be using that camp for that season except maybe CO archery, but even then they probably won’t use the camp for several days or maybe a week after that. But talk to them maybe they are gonna help you, maybe not but what’s it hurt?


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[fatlander]

There’s a lot to unpack here.

If you’re scouting further than 3 or 4 miles from camp, you’re wasting your time. You’re not going to hunt that far from where you’re camping. If you really think you are going to hunt that far, you don’t need to pay an outfitter for a drop camp, just go DIY.

If the area you’re talking about is within a mile or so of your camp and not separated by impassable cliffs, I’d be concerned that you’re wasting your money with this outfit.


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[Indian Summer]

I’ll add to what BigAntlerGetter had to say….

An outfitter doesn’t want to hunt next to other hunters anymore than hunters want to compete with an outfitter. But there’s no way for the outfitter to know where other people are hunting. However a simple phone call is all it takes to find out where an outfitter will be camping and when he will have clients in that camp. Early in the year we submit a proposed used form to the USFS. It spells out which camps we intend to use as well as how many clients will be in camp each week. So while hunters are doing their off-season online scouting they are also able to find out this information and take advantage of it.

The other thing worth mentioning is that while DIY hunters can camp anywhere for up to 14 days for free, as outfitters we have to pay a fee for our designated sites. We can use them for free for 14 days like anyone else but if we intend to leave a camp sit longer than that we have to pay the fee whether it’s in use or not. So camping there is not free for an outfitter.

I’ve packed gear and elk for hunters as well. Also garabge from them which by the way is always from locals not non res hunters. Wtf! I’ve also spent days putting out fires spreading through pine duff underground from careless hunters that don’t take the time or respect the land enough to make sure their campfires ate dead out. Wtf! Nobody ever knows or thinks about the things we do to maintain the place for everyone like packing water on mules all day and coming back for three days to make sure the damn hills aren’t going to go down in flames. But I can tell you I can’t really recall other hunters doing us any favors.

As long as hunters don’t litter and respect the land outfitters have no problem with sharing the mountain with him them. However the same is not always true of hunters, there’s definitely a hatred of outfitters no matter where you go. That’s a shame because an outfitter is nothing more than someone who has a true passion to do the same thing that the hunters are doing. I guarantee you they respect the land the animals and other hunters more than most people out elk hunting.

 

[Paul_E_Hunter]

Outfitter here.

Ok so we have permit areas we are allowed to operate in, sometimes a ridge is all that separates us from the other outfitter. Now we are not allowed to leave our permit area for commercial operations even if it is our client that crossed into another outfitters permit. So typically out of respect for the other outfitters WE won’t encroach on others permits. Personally, i inform hunters of my boundaries and other outfitters camps if I know they have clients but I cannot tell you you cannot go hunt over there. What I can tell you is “if you cross that ridge and kill ur bull in the bottom on the other side, YOU must bring the bull back to the top of the ridge onto my side before I can pack it out for you” sometimes we can call the other outfitter and let them know the situation and they have 3 options, grant us permission to access there permit to get ur animal, tell us to stick it and charge you to pack the animal out themselves or tell you tough luck you gotta pack it urself. Typically if that outfitter has hunters in his camp he’s not gonna let that ur outfitter access ur bull. Not one outfitter can kick you off of public land, we pay to use the land but not own it. If ur outfitter asked you not to go over there it is probably because the relationship with the other outfitter is rocky and they know what the answer would be if you harvested over there. It’s a tough game but with how the permit system is it’s to monitor each outfitter and their usage. Also helps cut down on illegal guiding and packing. In my permit I know my guides obviously and my packers so running into someone on the trail that’s obviously guiding and stuff I can have knowledge of.

Anyone can hike into any where and camp, it’s a grey area with an outfitters camp spot, technically we have to set up right there, thats “our” spot, if you came in and set up we can ask you to move your tent 300 yards from our registered spot. Especially if our camp is already set up and someone comes in sets up camp within our camp. But can’t kick you out of an area.

If you hiked into the other outfitters permit and he ran into you he cannot tell you to leave either it’s public land.


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Thank you for the insight

 

[BBob]

Didn’t elkshape just go through this in NM?

Par for the course with some NM outfitters, they lied.

 

[530Chukar]

In CO the USFS permits the camp site for an outfitter only as far as I know. There are a few maps floating around here that show outfitter camps on USFS land by company. Once you’re in the field you’re free to go anywhere you want. Just listen to the outfitter and where the next closest camps are.


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[BigAntlerGetter]

In CO the USFS permits the camp site for an outfitter only as far as I know. There are a few maps floating around here that show outfitter camps on USFS land by company. Once you’re in the field you’re free to go anywhere you want. Just listen to the outfitter and where the next closest camps are.


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Are these maps on this forum? I’m curious to find them myself if they are


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[530Chukar]

No they aren’t. I had a member here that I was talking to and they had a contact at the FS that had screen shorted the map that they have. It’s public information but I don’t know what kind of luck you’d have with the forest that you’re hunting sharing that information with you.


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[530Chukar]

Are these maps on this forum? I’m curious to find them myself if they are


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The map that I have shows camps for Rivers Bend, Lone Tom and a couple others that are in that area. I’m sure you’re familiar with the outfitters and the area.


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[BigAntlerGetter]

The map that I have shows camps for Rivers Bend, Lone Tom and a couple others that are in that area. I’m sure you’re familiar with the outfitters and the area.


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I gotcha I get calls often in other adjoining units for pack outs and guiding. I’m to lazy to get maps of all the units from the USFS so I just tell them to call them themselves


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