Down actually ruining a hunt?

[hankharp]

I've done the down vs. synthetic debate several times over the past few years in regards to both sleep systems and clothing. Like many gear discussions and debates, my internal thinking has been filled with hypothetical situations. After reading a lot from both sides ("down could get wet and ruin your hunt" or "a little bit of care and I've never had an issue"), I would be interested to hear any accounts of where having a down-based garment or sleep system actually made a hunt dangerous or a story where having synthetic really did save the hunt. Any takers?

 

[jmez]

Alaska, several years ago was noose hunting. Late September. It rained 12 days straight. Everything was wet. You couldn't be careful enough to keep anything dry. There was 2 inches of water standing in the bottom of the tent. No stove, even if we'd had one there wasn't anything dry enough to burn.

We all had synthetic bags and they were wet. Down would have been a mess.

I've never had problems with my down bag in the lower 48.

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[Kevin Dill]

40 years of nothing but goose down bags and I’ve yet to have an issue. I’ve been in some really wild and rough weather with them and never wished for anything different. I do really think a lot of it comes down to how you camp, moisture management, and a number of factors. In wet country I’m always sleeping elevated on a light cot with an inflatable pad under me. My bag for cold wet conditions has a Gore Windstopper shell which is not 100% waterproof in construction, but it is extremely effective at repelling water. Anyway, I’ve truly heard more stories about hunts ruined by bears than by down bags. In the end....go with what you want and try not to overthink it.

 

[AKDoc]

I use down bags. They compress so much better, and have never failed me up here. However, at the core of that decision for me is having a tent that consistently does it's job in tough conditions. I also use a thermarest lite cot (most of the time) and neoair pad (all of the time), which have already been mentioned. I always transport my bag in a waterproof compression sack.

That said, I do not rely on down for clothing warmth. I do have a down parka jacket and pants, which are lite, warm and compress nicely, but my primary/go to warm clothing is synthetic. I do not rely on the down clothing.

The OP is asking for stories of down failures...I don't have one...and if I ever do, it would most likely be due to a tent failure.

 

[Poser]

I don’t have a story of failure either. I do recall reading Mark Twight’s book “Extreme Alpinism”, which came out in the late 90s as he and a handful of partners were pioneering Alpine style pushes on technical faces in Alaska, Chaminiox and the Himalayas. At the time, considering all factors in a Ultra Light game, he was using synthetic insulation since there was zero room for error and the penalty would likely result in death. His philosophy was for the belayer to put on a synthetic insulation over their outerwear at the belay station, allowing the belayer to dry dry out with the moisture passing through the entire layering system and not negatively effecting the performance of the insulation.

 

[AK Troutbum]

I’ve also been using down bags/quilts now for many years and can’t say that I’ve ever had them ruin my hunt, or even severely negatively affect my hunt. That said, when I first started using floorless shelters, I also purchased a Mountain Hardware synthetic bag thinking that the chances of my sleep system getting wet would be much greater. After a couple seasons I decided that was not necessarily the case, so I went back to using down.
A few years ago I did have a Kodiak goat hunt that went a little south on me when 6” of rain fell over the course of five days. Most everything I had got pretty wet with water running through my shelter, but my treated down quilt dried out pretty quickly once the rain stopped for a few hours and I was able to hang it out in the wind. Those five days were a bit miserable but the hunt, all in all, was a success and a good learning experience for me.

 

[mrbillbrown]

I don’t have a story of failure either. I do recall reading Mark Twight’s book “Extreme Alpinism”, which came out in the late 90s as he and a handful of partners were pioneering Alpine style pushes on technical faces in Alaska, Chaminiox and the Himalayas. At the time, considering all factors in a Ultra Light game, he was using synthetic insulation since there was zero room for error and the penalty would likely result in death. His philosophy was for the belayer to put on a synthetic insulation over their outerwear at the belay station, allowing the belayer to dry dry out with the moisture passing through the entire layering system and not negatively effecting the performance of the insulation.

No down failure story either but I follow this philosophy. I spend all year plotting, planning, training, etc...to leave OK and head to CO to chase elk. I’ve got way too much invested to have any worry of a down bag failing when I know my synthetic is gonna work. Now, if I lived closer and had more opportunities to hunt it have my hunt cut short and revisit the areas I’d be willing to try down. But in my tiny mind....it’s well worth the piece of mind in synthetic over the what if using down. Just my $.02


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[mrbillbrown]

I did have a trip where I regrettably packed my bladder inside my pack and it ruptured somewhere along the 12hr Drive. My partner and I didn’t catch it until we pulled into the trailhead and my pack was full of water. Would a down bag have derailed or delayed the start of the hunt? Maybe. But since I run synthetic we just squeezed out all the excess water and hiked on in.


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[dtrkyman]

Just listened to John Barklow from sitka discuss this, he is pro synthetic for everything pretty much bags included. He did make a good point about wearing his clothes in his bag, why only use them part of the day and he runs a higher temp bag due to wearing his clothes in the bag and said he can cook em dry if wet inside the bag.

His background makes one listen, it was interesting for sure, makes me rethink a new bag purchase for a late season muley hunt in Az.

Added bonus is having warm clothes in the morning and having to put on cold stuff and warm it up.

 

[AK Troutbum]

Just listened to John Barklow from sitka discuss this, he is pro synthetic for everything pretty much bags included. He did make a good point about wearing his clothes in his bag, why only use them part of the day and he runs a higher temp bag due to wearing his clothes in the bag and said he can cook em dry if wet inside the bag.

His background makes one listen, it was interesting for sure, makes me rethink a new bag purchase for a late season muley hunt in Az.

Added bonus is having warm clothes in the morning and having to put on cold stuff and warm it up.

On a mountain hunt, I pretty much wear my clothes 24/7, the only exception being my rain gear and my puffy pants/jacket. I also take a cooler/lighter wt. quilt and just plan on wearing my puffy gear to bed with me if needed. I've slept in my very damp clothes many times, under a treated down quilt, and have always woke up the next morning completely dry, although sometimes the outside material in the footbox will be damp if my socks were exceptionally wet the night before.

 

[Beendare]

I mostly use down and have never had anything more than just a small loss of insulation

Years ago I did have a situation with a leaky bivy that soaked 1/4 of my Syn bag and froze my pad....in that case the Syn did great.

Now I use pretty solid tents.....and use down unless its going to be crazy wet.

 

[wind gypsy]

Just listened to John Barklow from sitka discuss this, he is pro synthetic for everything pretty much bags included. He did make a good point about wearing his clothes in his bag, why only use them part of the day and he runs a higher temp bag due to wearing his clothes in the bag and said he can cook em dry if wet inside the bag.

His background makes one listen, it was interesting for sure, makes me rethink a new bag purchase for a late season muley hunt in Az.

Added bonus is having warm clothes in the morning and having to put on cold stuff and warm it up.

Barklow's comments have me reconsidering as well.. Wonder if Nunatak would make a custom apex bag?

Some of the stuff he said was a bit off though. "For an extra 6 ounces" - show me a synthetic bag of that is within 6 ounces of a comparably dimensioned and warm Western Mountaineering bag. Seems most are 1 Lb plus heavier at 30 degrees and the gap widens as you get warmer bags. Saying that synthetic are more durable is misleading too. Yes, fabric cuts are more problematic with down but loss of loft over time is a much bigger problem with synthetics. Functionally I bet synthetics get replaced more due to loss of loft than down does due to fabric cuts.

 

[20DYNAMITE07]

Hey Hank-
My $.02, if can afford the weight and space, there is nothing wrong with synthetic bags. They work great, the work wet, and they're more affordable. Nothing wrong with that.

Having said that... I have a down quilt. It weighs about half of my old synthetic bag, easily packs down to half the size, and is 15* warmer. Before my elk hunt in the Cascades two weeks ago, I did a DIY Hydrophobic down treatment with NIKWAX. To do it, I had to submerge my quilt (previously untreated) under water in my bath tub. It took me FOREVER to get my UGQ quilt wet, let alone saturated. Could my bag wet out in the field? ABSOLUTELY. But barring a failure of my shelter, I think I can keep it reasonably dry, and I have a SOL for emergency backup to get me through a bad night. I suppose I run the risk of having to call a trip early, but I'm willing to take that risk for the weight and space savings.
If lived or camped consistently where it was always super wet, I'd probably go synthetic, but until that time happens I'm very happy with my choice.

Best of luck!!!

 

[Yellowknife]

I had a "waterproof" down jacket fail completely part way through an extremely wet sheep hunt. Even with a shell over it, the combination of sweat, humidity, and leakage around the cuffs, and hem eventually just killed it. Didn't stop the hunt (I had enough other synthetic clothes to get by), but it sure made it a lot less fun when glassing. I've gone back to synthetic puffy layers since, both for the weather resistance and the additional durability. It's simply less fussy, and I like that.

I've had sleeping bags get soggy a couple times. Once in a Kodiak storm, when the extreme humidity and falling temps caused massive condensation on everything and a couple other times when tents failed and flooded. In those instances I was prepared and brought synthetic.

Now, most the time I use down bags and good enough tents it's not an issue. Still take synthetic on coastal hunts though. The drawbacks are minimal (12 oz/slightly bulkier), and I'm usually not carrying it as far on those hunts... so why not?

 

[Murdy]

As for sleeping in clothes, best not to sleep in all your clothes (not sure what exactly was being proposed). On those cold mornings, if you have to get out of your bag and have nothing to add to what you are wearing, you'll be miserable.

 

[Poser]

As for sleeping in clothes, best not to sleep in all your clothes (not sure what exactly was being proposed). On those cold mornings, if you have to get out of your bag and have nothing to add to what you are wearing, you'll be miserable.

I’ve been sleeping In Clothes to skim by with a lighter sleeping bag for years. It’s usually just base layers, but I’ve slept with a mid layer jacket plenty of times. I put my puffy on recently to get out and pee on one of the coldest nights I’ve ever slept out (20 degree quilt) and got back in my quilt with it on. When I got up, I was quite glad to already have it on and warmed up.

 

[dtrkyman]

I have yet to figure out a good cold weather system, truck camping in the back of my grand cherokee I have tried sleeping in nothing and with base layers, I am either freezing because I am cold or cold due to sweating.

I have put my mummy bag inside my wifes rectangle bag so I know I have enough insulation with that set up but still freeze, My mummy is a north face cats meow which I know is not very well rated for winter camping but inside another bag I would think is enough insulation.

Going to try sleeping in synthetic sitka base layers and see how that goes this year. Also looking into a new bag and was going down until I heard that podcast.

 

[wind gypsy]

The recent synthetic bug got me to ask Jan at Nunatak about custom apex bags. You can basically get the Nova configured as a bag with insulation and fabric to match your needs and i'm sure it'll be lighter than whats commercially available for synthetic bags.

Very tempted to get a 20-25ish rated apex bag with quantum shell made up. He figured a 20 degree comfort rated version with the lightest fabrics would be around 35 ounces.

Nova Bivy With Full Insulated Coverage - Nunatak Equipment

 

[20DYNAMITE07]

I have yet to figure out a good cold weather system, truck camping in the back of my grand cherokee I have tried sleeping in nothing and with base layers, I am either freezing because I am cold or cold due to sweating.

I have put my mummy bag inside my wifes rectangle bag so I know I have enough insulation with that set up but still freeze, My mummy is a north face cats meow which I know is not very well rated for winter camping but inside another bag I would think is enough insulation.

Going to try sleeping in synthetic sitka base layers and see how that goes this year. Also looking into a new bag and was going down until I heard that podcast.

With two bags you're probably sweating... sucks either way though. Definitely play with the layers you're sleeping in. In a perfect world you can sleep in your base layers. You can always add if you need to, but if you sweat and get that chill you're done. Enlightened Equipment has an interesting matrix for combining quilts for a winter system... but I'm betting the temp ratings will hold for bags too. Check it out here: How to layer quilts for sub-zero camping – Enlightened Equipment

 

[dtrkyman]

Cool chart for ratings, looks like I was around a zero degree bag with the 2 I had, was in the teens last year when I used the combo so not sure if that is enough to over heat?