Does the 223/6mm for everything change when hunt cost $$$

[DangerRanger]

If that's the case, I'm definitely taking the 270 or 6.5x55 because I know they perform at range with far less wind deflection and drop. I also have no problem being accurate with them. So again, 223 isn't on the menu and it doesn't matter if it shoots 77gr or not. It simply does not match ballistically for ranges I may encounter on animals.

You don’t seem like a “223/6mm for everything” person though. So you aren’t really the target audience

I don’t mean that negatively, I mean it literally.

This question seems relatively black and white, someone that converted to the combos expressed on here, from seeing the photos and then trying those combos seems far more likely to say “absolutely I would”

Vs

Someone like you who has shot animals with 223/6mm rifles in the past, with various loads, been relatively successful and kept on hunting with various cartridges. I would expect that person to reach for the 270, just like you do.

I would not expect you to be a rokslide 223 for everything person if you’ve never shot a deer with a 77 tmk, and all your 223 references to be with 55/62 gr bullets

 

[sveltri]

I built a 243AI this year to use on elk then drew a sheep tag. It’s not a high dollar tag, but likely a once in a lifetime. I will have zero hesitation to send a 108 eld-m into a ram.

 

[Marbles]

You should convince yourself to stop being afraid of recoil.

Well, my pride got in the way and it took me a bit to get to the correct answer.

Who cares?

Seriously, the why does not matter, rather the reality.

I'm not a sherpa, I will never haul more than my body weight up a mountain and not feel trashed, even if I had the time to train a whole lot, I lack the genetics and the early exposure to high altitude to match a sherpa. Acknowledging reality is more valuable than spending massive amounts of time fighting it.

Same goes for recoil, I can work and improve my shooting, but I have a limited amount of time and funds. Even if it is flinching causing my groups to open up with heavier recoil, it is a better use of my limited resources to step down in bore size and powder column to something I shoot better, especially as those options will all get me further than I should be shooting at the moment.

 

[Southern Lights]

This question seems relatively black and white, someone that converted to the combos expressed on here, from seeing the photos and then trying those combos seems far more likely to say “absolutely I would”

I understand. But again just based on ballistics at distance even with 77gr I'm unlikely to make it my primary. My misses on hunts/targets are by and large related to wind error (especially beyond 400y). If I'm not bothered by recoil from the 6.5 or 270, why am I going to downgrade to much worse wind and elevation performance in the 223 regardless of equivalent terminal ballistics for the kill?

But I find that I am hunting in situations that can be 50y out to 800y. If I'm only carrying one rifle to cover those ranges, it's not going to be a 223. If I was primarily shooting 2-300y and closer? Sure I'd consider the 223 as a primary based on my own experience with it.

 

[TimberHunter]

I understand. But again just based on ballistics at distance even with 77gr I'm unlikely to make it my primary. My misses on hunts/targets are by and large related to wind error (especially beyond 400y). If I'm not bothered by recoil from the 6.5 or 270, why am I going to downgrade to much worse wind and elevation performance in the 223 regardless of equivalent terminal ballistics for the kill?

But I find that I am hunting in situations that can be 50y out to 800y. If I'm only carrying one rifle to cover those ranges, it's not going to be a 223. If I was primarily shooting 2-300y and closer? Sure I'd consider the 223 as a primary based on my own experience with it.

Here’s a tip…if you’re 6.5/270 misses on hunts are by and large due to wind, you’re shooting too far in too much wind


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Marbles]

I understand. But again just based on ballistics at distance even with 77gr I'm unlikely to make it my primary. My misses on hunts/targets are by and large related to wind error (especially beyond 400y). If I'm not bothered by recoil from the 6.5 or 270, why am I going to downgrade to much worse wind and elevation performance in the 223 regardless of equivalent terminal ballistics for the kill?

But I find that I am hunting in situations that can be 50y out to 800y. If I'm only carrying one rifle to cover those ranges, it's not going to be a 223. If I was primarily shooting 2-300y and closer? Sure I'd consider the 223 as a primary based on my own experience with it.

I'm curious, if you cannot call wind well enough to hit, how can you call it well enough to know wind is what caused your miss?

Wind sounds like a favorite boogie man for many to explain things. However, unless you are practicing in the same country and consistently being able to walk your shots on to target, how can you confidently say the wind spirit is screwing with your shots and not something else?

On a side note, the 77 TMK from a 223 tends to be getting a bit slow past 400 to 500 yards, which is the point of 6mm are 22 Creedmoor.

 

[Southern Lights]

I'm curious, if you cannot call wind well enough to hit, how can you call it well enough to know wind is what caused your miss?

Wind sounds like a favorite boogie man for many to explain things. However, unless you are practicing in the same country and consistently being able to walk your shots on to target, how can you confidently say the wind spirit is screwing with your shots and not something else?

Because I train at extended range regularly and know a bad trigger pull/position vs. a wind estimation error. Nobody here has ever missed a target due to a bad wind call or holding too much wind or too little?

This still doesn't help me understand that if wind is a factor (and it always is past 400y), why would a 223 make it any better vs. the other calibres?

We are probably arguing past each other. If people want to use 223 to shoot 300y and in I don't fault them. But when it gets beyond those ranges I'm not picking my 223 for hunting.

 

[TheGDog]

Emotion is triggered by thought - but it happens so fast that we often don't recognize the thought...and many don't even realize their subsequent "thinking" is being driven and clouded by emotion. The more intense the emotion, the more it's invariably related to either threat perception or their sense of identity. And those emotions are incredibly powerful when it's a perceived threat to identity.

And that's what almost every single gun-guy decision comes down to, when not driven by hard data - their identity, and how they express that and its related tribalism with their choices of guns, cartridges, brand loyalty, etc, etc.

When someone is presented with a mountain of data and verifiable, repeated evidence, and still disregards it in their decision making - you can be almost certain they're experiencing threat perception emotions related to their sense of identity. It's too big of a hit to their ego.

I personally don't know how someone could read every single post of that .223 thread, and still disregard or dismiss that evidence.

^^^THIS Gentleman get's it, the Psychology InGroup vs OutGroup tactic they like to employ!

 

[TheGDog]

Just to follow this example, doesn't this "spotting misses" imply you are missing more?

The extreme lack of logic and reason (And English Comprehension) in this sentence made me wince. HARD.

 

[Fireflyfishing]

I voted no.

I hunt with my 300 WM or 300 WSM for all big game. They both have brakes and I can watch impacts from both rifles. They both kill stuff. I shoot them often…more than my 556 guns. I shot them both yesterday, in fact. My 300 WSM literally has recoil in between a 556 or .243. Before I threaded the muzzles they killed stuff too. I would feel more than comfortable using my mags on a fancy hunt abroad. I’d also have the confidence to reach out farther ballistically as I shoot these rifles 600+ on the reg. Neither rifle is really all that light…and I’m OK with that…I train.

I recently bought three boxes of 77 TMKs for my 556. I’m intrigued by the threads here on Rockslide, on the subject of killing big game with the 77 TMK. Perhaps I’ll try it this year on my deer tags. I do have an open mind.

With all that being said, there are a lot of internet sheep here on Rockslide. I read through the posts of inexperience, false claims, and recoil shy users here and shake my head. I think this is an interesting thread because it shows all of the holes if you’ve been around the block a time or two.

I find it interesting how folks on here say they’d use a different guide if they weren’t allowed to use their 223/556. Right…. What if ALL the outfitters/guides said no? How about Africa? I’d love to watch a conversation between a 77 TMK die hard and an African PH and the debate on how they should be allowed to bring their AR on safari for larger, dangerous game. But I guess they’re all just fudds, right?

 

[JCMCUBIC]

I'm curious, if you cannot call wind well enough to hit, how can you call it well enough to know wind is what caused your miss?

Wind sounds like a favorite boogie man for many to explain things. However, unless you are practicing in the same country and consistently being able to walk your shots on to target, how can you confidently say the wind spirit is screwing with your shots and not something else?

On a side note, the 77 TMK from a 223 tends to be getting a bit slow past 400 to 500 yards, which is the point of 6mm are 22 Creedmoor.

You can call wind a "boogie man" if you wish, but for me, it's simply the toughest external influence to account for. The effects are readable and measurable if constant, but it's rarely constant. In most cases, I know when I've waivered a touch in my position/form or broke the trigger slightly off on a beat...those I can generally account to myself. I also generally know that the trigger broke when I felt the gust, that I had no control over. The end result on target generally matches what I already know, saw, and/or felt.

As distance increases, especially on mountain sides where the swirl of wind between myself and the target is very tough for me to read, the toughest external influence for me to account for gets even tougher. This is all said with the understanding that a person shoots enough to know when it's them.

 

[Sandstrom]

Unfortunately, I couldn’t find the article I am thinking of, I read it several years ago, but the it was about a yearly timed trial / competition for PH’s in Africa. It documented how many rifle failures they had and what brands in timed trials with “elephant guns”. It was appalling the number of rifles that did not make it through the basic two or three shot rapid fire string (not to mention the hit rates)…. After reading this, it sounds as if PH’s in Africa are no different than guides in the US in terminal ballistic knowledge and rifle lore. Putting them on a pedestal is a simply an incorrect blanket appeal to authority.

 

[Sevens]

Unfortunately, I couldn’t find the article I am thinking of, I read it several years ago, but the it was about a yearly timed trial / competition for PH’s in Africa. It documented how many rifle failures they had and what brands in timed trials with “elephant guns”. It was appalling the number of rifles that did not make it through the basic two or three shot rapid fire string (not to mention the hit rates)…. After reading this, it sounds as if PH’s in Africa are no different than guides in the US in terminal ballistic knowledge and rifle lore. Putting them on a pedestal is a simply an incorrect blanket appeal to authority.

“Rifle Lessons Learned from the Zimbabwe Professional Hunter Proficiency Exam” - that the article you’re referencing?

To be fair, none of them are going to pick a 223 for their “back-up” rifle. Their rifle isn’t getting used when there is the luxury of waiting for the perfect shot. Not saying a 223 won’t kill an elephant (Bell used a 6.5 on plenty, but he picked his shots), just not great when being charged.

 

[Wyo_hntr]

It's like Americans have never heard of the 243 until someone decided to call it 6mm and slap the name Creedmoor on the end of it.

Interesting. I always thought the 243win was one of the most popular chamberings in the U.S. Just behind 223 and 308. Heck I even thought it was invented here.

Thank you for the revelation...

 

[Fireflyfishing]

Unfortunately, I couldn’t find the article I am thinking of, I read it several years ago, but the it was about a yearly timed trial / competition for PH’s in Africa. It documented how many rifle failures they had and what brands in timed trials with “elephant guns”. It was appalling the number of rifles that did not make it through the basic two or three shot rapid fire string (not to mention the hit rates)…. After reading this, it sounds as if PH’s in Africa are no different than guides in the US in terminal ballistic knowledge and rifle lore. Putting them on a pedestal is a simply an incorrect blanket appeal to authority.

The difference is they are PROFESSIONAL HUNTERS that have to kill the dangerous game when their client fails to do so unlike an elk guide in North America. They use double rifles to get successive shots off quickly. Yes, the seconds shot would be damn hard to hit on target. No argument there.

I’m not putting anyone on a pedestal. But, I’m not going to go to their country and tell them how to hunt there when they’ve been at it…successfully I might add…for very long time.

I would add, many folks that visit Africa want to use the gnarly mag rifle for the plains game…because they’re in Africa. The PHs prefer lighter calibers for that type of quarry for the same reasons mentioned on these 223/556 threads.

 

[Fireflyfishing]

“Rifle Lessons Learned from the Zimbabwe Professional Hunter Proficiency Exam” - that the article you’re referencing?

To be fair, none of them are going to pick a 223 for their “back-up” rifle. Their rifle isn’t getting used when there is the luxury of waiting for the perfect shot. Not saying a 223 won’t kill an elephant (Bell used a 6.5 on plenty, but he picked his shots), just not great when being charged.

Bingo

 

[Formidilosus]

Now where at the “but what about African dangerous game” point.

 

[eric1115]

Now where at the “but what about African dangerous game” point.

What if you were going on a hunt where you knew there was a chance that space aliens would show up and they had armor that was specifically designed to stop small diameter tipped match bullets, but was very vulnerable to large diameter solids? Would you use the .223 then? Huh? Wouldja?

 

[Fireflyfishing]

Now where at the “but what about African dangerous game” point.

Well, they are rather expensive and out of the country, right?

 

[Wyo_hntr]

Well, they are rather expensive and out of the country, right?

I believe it's the point that these discussions always end up at "dangerous African game". Classic strawman.

I guess you might as well take the 223 since most folks that go to Africa buy a mega-magnum they can't shoot (and haven't practiced with) and rely on their ph to actually kill their wounded quarry. Same/same. Nevermind the minimum legal requirements in most African countries for "dangerous game" that make the strawman even more ridiculous.