Does the 223/6mm for everything change when hunt cost $$$

[ElPollo]

Me bringing that up had to do with the Mountain Nyala hunt where it would most likely be a very close and brief opportunity to get a shot off do to the thick environment they live in, that’s why I suggested a large cartridge with a deep penetrating bullet.

Point was that this whole thread is an exercise in mental masturbation to justify a ‘need’ for a certain type of gun. If you want a 28 ass womper, I fully support that. But there is no need to create ridiculous scenarios to support that desire, and one should be honest with themselves about what they would expect from it if they decide to buy it. Recoil matters for everyone. To make that gun do what you are suggesting and be good with it, you have to shoot a lot. Most people don’t. They use the gun as a crutch and don’t put in the work. The result of that is generally poor shooting.

 

[Castmaster]

Hey I wasn’t the one that made the scenario , but on a serious note I don’t think most people realize how difficult a Mountain Nyala hunt really is, it’s considered by most as the “Most difficult hunt in Africa” for a reason I think it was a poorly example for this thread it has absolutely nothing to do with the price of the hunt.

 

[ElPollo]

Let’s have your approach/routine as well.

I’m never going to hunt a Marco Polo sheep, but I do hunt big, windy, open country. My guns have been getting smaller and as of this year, I’m hunting with a suppressed 223 bolt gun. I enjoy shooting it, I shoot it well, and I have confidence that it will kill anything I shoot with it. I don’t give a shit if someone thinks I’m a fool for doing so because I generally don’t put much stock in what others think or say. And I’m not taking 700 yard ass-shots in high winds or otherwise unless something is already wounded. In 30+ years of western big game hunting, I’ve never had to become an ass-shooter.

 

[plebe]

I’m never going to hunt a Marco Polo sheep, but I do hunt big, windy, open country. My guns have been getting smaller and as of this year, I’m hunting with a suppressed 223 bolt gun. I enjoy shooting it, I shoot it well, and I have confidence that it will kill anything I shoot with it. I don’t give a shit if someone thinks I’m a fool for doing so because I generally don’t put much stock in what others think or say. And I’m not taking 700 yard ass-shots in high winds or otherwise unless something is already wounded. In 30+ years of western big game hunting, I’ve never had to become an ass-shooter.

Right on, happy hunting.

I don’t care what ya’ll hunt with either, but it seems fair you answer questions you ask.

 

[yeti12]

So, nearly 1/4” from a .308? Lol. And the resistant force (backstop) for this exercise was?

Idk, this back and forth over in-line recoil distance really detracts from the point that was previously made. Recoil anticipation (flinch) is most often a much more destructive factor. This is favorable to the light recoiling cartridge argument.

However, it’s just one performance factor, and has as much to do with the individual shooter as it does the cartridge.

Can you read a tape measure?

The recoil distance came about cause TP was claiming things absolutely not true.

 

[plebe]

Can you read a tape measure?

The recoil distance came about cause TP was claiming things absolutely not true.

Only saw the two blue lines on their Instagram. I see the red line comes up once animated. Is that in the description?

Then there’s the video of theirs:

https://m.facebook.com/BryanLitzBallistics/videos/this-video-shows-the-recoil-motion-of-a-barrel-before-the-bullet-exits-it-is-mos/886716482687341/

It is clearer. Yes it’s less than 1/4” before bullet leaves the bore. Good point. No need to choke down to .223, just get into your gun. lol.

 

[mt terry d]

"a 700+yd shot on one across a canyon in very high gusting winds"

How many here would be capable of making that wind call and kill shot
with a high percentage of success, "cold barrel", field conditions (mountains
and very high gusty winds, cross canyon) with any cartridge?

I'm betting not over three, and I'm also betting I'm on the high end.

And of those three, how many can afford a Marco Polo sheep hunt?

It reminds me of the question "How many angels can dance on the
head of a pin?"

 

[IDVortex]

"a 700+yd shot on one across a canyon in very high gusting winds"

How many here would be capable of making that wind call and kill shot
with a high percentage of success, "cold barrel", field conditions (mountains
and very high gusty winds, cross canyon) with any cartridge?

I'm betting not over three, and I'm also betting I'm on the high end.

And of those three, how many can afford a Marco Polo sheep hunt?

It reminds me of the question "How many angels can dance on the
head of a pin?"

The other thing, how many people can accurately shoot past 300 yards in any condition? I know I can't unless in a comfortable prone position. As in a range prone position. But I'm also working on that. People have to much pride.

 

[TaperPin]

I wasn't led to believe anything. Ive watched multiple rifles fired next to a scale with high speed cameras capturing the distance the barrel moves before muzzle exit.

You literally have absolutely no idea what you are trying to say. You are just hoping that you sound smart after saying pure jibberish.


The math to calculate that is significantly more complex than you believe it is.

After the bullet leaves the barrel, the math to approximate recoil is much more complex, but up to the point the bullet is just leaving is a simple conservation of center of mass. My numbers are within a few .001” of what QuickLoad spits out for any combination, the difference is essentially rounding error.

While the bullet is in the barrel, energy imparted into the rifle over time and the velocity of the rifle during that time is full of estimates and errors - seems like a much harder path than a simple snapshot of the center of gravity before the shot and at the moment the bullet leaves.

I’ve had two dozen people on Accurate shooter, half engineers, try to argue the only way to compute it is very complex - to the person they failed to have a single reason why the quite simple calculation of conservation of center of mass (a fundamental Newtonian principle) doesn’t apply. The two engineers that stand out in my mind were the most animated in their argument, also fell silent the quickest as soon as they refreshed their memory of how basic the concept of conservation of center of mass is. It was quite entertaining - seems to be the quickest way to push the buttons of otherwise smart educated folks. Lol

 

[yeti12]

After the bullet leaves the barrel, the math to approximate recoil is much more complex, but up to the point the bullet is just leaving is a simple conservation of center of mass. My numbers are within a few .001” of what QuickLoad spits out for any combination, the difference is essentially rounding error.

While the bullet is in the barrel, energy imparted into the rifle over time and the velocity of the rifle during that time is full of estimates and errors - seems like a much harder path than a simple snapshot of the center of gravity before the shot and at the moment the bullet leaves.

I’ve had two dozen people on Accurate shooter, half engineers, try to argue the only way to compute it is very complex - to the person they failed to have a single reason why the quite simple calculation of conservation of center of mass (a fundamental Newtonian principle) doesn’t apply. The two engineers that stand out in my mind were the most animated in their argument, also fell silent the quickest as soon as they refreshed their memory of how basic the concept of conservation of center of mass is. It was quite entertaining - seems to be the quickest way to push the buttons of otherwise smart educated folks. Lol

Have you considered that people just decide to quit engaging with you because it's not worth the effort?

Systems don't really "gain" or "lose" center of mass, so it's odd to say that this is "conserved" it hurts my brain to even try to figure out what you think you are talking about.

If it's so simple, lay it out so we can all easily calculate rifle movement and disprove all high speed imaging tests that have ever been done.

I'll wait.

 

[thinhorn_AK]

Has anybody posted up pics of a stone or desert sheep hunt where they used a 223????

I didn’t think so.

 

[IDVortex]

Has anybody posted up pics of a stone or desert sheep hunt where they used a 223????

I didn’t think so.

I mean. If you pay for my hunt I'll use a .223 on one.

 

[TaperPin]

Have you considered that people just decide to quit engaging with you because it's not worth the effort?

Systems don't really "gain" or "lose" center of mass, so it's odd to say that this is "conserved" it hurts my brain to even try to figure out what you think you are talking about.

If it's so simple, lay it out so we can all easily calculate rifle movement and disprove all high speed imaging tests that have ever been done.

I'll wait.

Those high speed camera shots have external forces holding the rifle back - however it is being held is reducing the amount of recoil. The more butt plate pressure applied, the less rifle movement will be seen.

Feel free to google “center of mass conservation”

Closed system means mass cannot be added or taken away.
Isolated system means there are no outside forces being applied to it.
Conservation of momentum says whatever the initial momentum is won’t change unless external forces are applied - if momentum is constant than so to is the center of mass. Bullet and powder go one way and rifle moves the amount needed to keep center of gravity in the same place.

This guy looks and sounds just like me - just much smarter. Lol

 

[yeti12]

Those high speed camera shots have external forces holding the rifle back - however it is being held is reducing the amount of recoil. The more butt plate pressure applied, the less rifle movement will be seen.

Feel free to google “center of mass conservation”

Closed system means mass cannot be added or taken away.
Isolated system means there are no outside forces being applied to it.
Conservation of momentum says whatever the initial momentum is won’t change unless external forces are applied - if momentum is constant than so to is the center of mass. Bullet and powder go one way and rifle moves the amount needed to keep center of gravity in the same place.

This guy looks and sounds just like me - just much smarter. Lol

I usually shoulder and hold my rifle when shooting it. Do you?

Still waiting on that easy equation that factors in rifle weight, time in bore, recoil energy, shoulder pressure, body weight and all the other factors and tells us how far the rifle will move with the bullet in the bore.

Everyone else is wrong. Show us you are right.

 

[Gorp2007]

I usually shoulder and hold my rifle when shooting it. Do you?

Next you’ll tell me that when you’re shooting prone you’re allowing gravity and friction to keep you stationary instead of sliding backwards on an infinite, frictionless rail. True marksmen only fire their weapons remotely, in a vacuum, while experiencing zero gravity.

Firing them remotely is also what lets them ignore recoil.

 

[JohnJohnson]

The other thing, how many people can accurately shoot past 300 yards in any condition? I know I can't unless in a comfortable prone position. As in a range prone position. But I'm also working on that. People have to much pride.

A good shooting tripod helps a lot, though isn't the fastest solution in some situations. For now I'm comfortable just letting those opportunities go.

 

[IDVortex]

A good shooting tripod helps a lot, though isn't the fastest solution in some situations. For now I'm comfortable just letting those opportunities go.

Same. I'm wanting to get to that point, but not now. Though I do wish I had friends who knew more about long range shooting, or just good knowledge in shooting to learn from.

 

[JohnJohnson]

Same. I'm wanting to get to that point, but not now. Though I do wish I had friends who knew more about long range shooting, or just good knowledge in shooting to learn from.

If you want, I have a how-to guide for some shooting tripod tips I can send. Plus, going to a precision rifle class will help jumpstart everything. They're worth every penny.

 

[IDVortex]

If you want, I have a how-to guide for some shooting tripod tips I can send. Plus, going to a precision rifle class will help jumpstart everything. They're worth every penny.

Oh, it's in the works to see if we can swing it, or if I can actually save the money to go to a S2H academy. Also looking at doing a local shooting class here locally, just need to email/call the guy to gather more info. Once I can drop the coin for a class, I want to. But I also want to make sure I have the correct gear to do the class correctly, instead of getting flustered with improper gear.

 

[TheGDog]

Bump that noise! If I was blessed enough to cough-up 40 large? Definitely wouldn't be a .223 Rem in my hands.

And why should I? With rounds like 6.5cm where the recoil is actually not bad at all. Kinda no excuse not to bump-up a little on the ft-Lbs.