Does the 223/6mm for everything change when hunt cost $$$

[Leaf Litter]

To clarify, is this because you think a 77 TMK won't go through an elk shoulder at 350 yards?

Reliably and predictably? No

 

[Shō[t]gun]

Reliably and predictably? No

Did you experience this yourself or did your favorite podcast convince you it’s not enough “wallop”?

 

[JohnJohnson]

Reliably and predictably? No

Alright well hey that's a tangible thing that .223 guys (I'm not one of them though may build one in a few years) can weigh in on. That's further than most people who object to it go though so that's nice.

 

[Leaf Litter]

Did you experience this yourself or did your favorite podcast convince you it’s not enough “wallop”?

I don't listen to podcasts, but I appreciate your facetious question.

I've had more than 1 cup and core bullet blow up in whitetail shoulders and not penetrate the body cavity. So, yes, my experience with a very similar situation has been bad.

 

[ElPollo]

It’s a self fulfilling prediction - if you consciously and subconsciously believe recoil will reduce your ability to hold the rifle steady, then it will. Everyone has a different tolerance, but to simply say we’re victoms of recoil and there is nothing that can be done, is far from the truth. Poor shooting due to recoil is completely anticipation - a rifle will only recoil 1/4” or so before the bullet leaves the barrel.

Normally I would caution people to only publicly discuss topics they are familiar with. But for you, I’ll just stand back and enjoy the show.

 

[fwafwow]

I would NEVER use a 223 for any medium or large game hunting, regardless of price or location.

To the Kool-Aid chuggers:
Yes I've heard the success stories, yes a 223 can kill effectively with the right projectile under perfect conditions, no that hasn't convinced me it's adequate for all shots that might reasonably taken by ethical hunters.

Assuming this isn’t a troll post - what makes the 223 beliefs Kool
-Aid and what you’ve been taught The Gospel?

 

[Leaf Litter]

Assuming this isn’t a troll post - what makes the 223 beliefs Kool
-Aid and what you’ve been taught The Gospel?

Same as every else here, it's my opinion based on personal experience. I don't claim anything to be gospel.

 

[Sadler]

I don't listen to podcasts, but I appreciate your facetious question.

I've had more than 1 cup and core bullet blow up in whitetail shoulders and not penetrate the body cavity. So, yes, my experience with a very similar situation has been bad.

I take it you recovered the animal due to a follow up shot. Did you happen to take a picture of the wound that was created by that bullet that didn’t penetrate? I was hesitant on using match bullets myself for this exact reason even though I’ve never personally seen it or experienced it.

 

[Leaf Litter]

I take it you recovered the animal due to a follow up shot. Did you happen to take a picture of the wound that was created by that bullet that didn’t penetrate? I was hesitant on using match bullets myself for this exact reason even though I’ve never personally seen it or experienced it.

I was able to recover both because of second shots. One of which ran over 400 yards still. No photos of the wound, but essentially it hit the shoulder and broke the bullet and bone into a thousand tiny pieces, none of which penetrated past the ribs.

I understand these aren't ideal shots, but life doesn't always go as planned.

 

[Shō[t]gun]

I don't listen to podcasts, but I appreciate your facetious question.

I've had more than 1 cup and core bullet blow up in whitetail shoulders and not penetrate the body cavity. So, yes, my experience with a very similar situation has been bad.

What was the caliber, bullet weight, and impact velocity?

 

[Thegman]

I think it would be interesting to see the answers divided into two groups.

A. Answers from those that have taken a large number of game animals with a 223 and also a large number of game animals with significantly larger cartridges. ("large number" being somewhat subjective, but say 30 at a bare minimum).

and

B. Those that have not done the above.

I'm currently in group B, so my answer would be somewhat irrelevant, I think.

 

[solarshooter]

Personally, I think we are succumbing to "appeal to authority" a bit here. All data and experiences should be considered, and we should test hypotheses that best match all available experimental data. I don't think that one person has to have done both methods (small vs large bullet/cartridge) to report on one or the other.

However, people should refrain from casting aspersions on things they haven't tried, especially when there is a ton of experimental evidence on this forum which speaks to the efficacy of 223/6 for killing. Now what we might not be seeing are the failures, since people have a strong bias towards reporting success and not reporting failure. This is maybe the root of my personal doubts.

My aggregation of tons of info on this forum related to this topic would be:

• Bullet construction, impact velocity, and shot placement matter most
• Bigger bullets/cartridges don't guarantee a higher likelihood of killing if the above criteria are not optimized
• Bigger bullets/cartridges can perform significantly better in the wind
• Bigger bullets/cartridges can be significantly harder to shoot well in hunting situations
• Practice shooting at range and from realistic hunting positions under time pressure is critically important, and should take priority over load dev or other bench top shooting for hunters
• See Forms list of reasons why we miss, address these and minimize them

As I said when I first commented on this thread, I think there is a balance to be struck between low recoil and good ballistic performance, and larger bullets/cartridges can provide more error tolerance provided you shoot them well. As I also said, I'm no fan of magnums, I hate shooting anything with more than say 20ftlbs of recoil, and I have seen many novice shooters really suffer shooting their magnums (or lightweight 308s). I think for most shooters a smaller bullet/cartridge is a better solution, and most shooters should also not be trying to kill beyond 400-450yds. That goes for many of the so called "koolaid drinkers" on here too - and I encourage everyone to go look at the results of the Cold Bore challenge, and other discussions on hit rate analysis if they want rationale behind this statement.

 

[Macintosh]

@Thegman I agree. As written its the same big gun/little gun argument that we get weekly, same cast of characters, same tangents, etc. it’s kind of like an episode of the love boat…its sort of a different story, but really they’re all exactly the same.

 

[Firth]

Assuming this isn’t a troll post - what makes the 223 beliefs Kool
-Aid and what you’ve been taught The Gospel?

It's funny that people who accept that a 223 can kill efficiently are sometimes referred to as "kool-aid drinkers" when they're making decisions based on empirical data. Of course, the term originates from the Jonestown cult where people committed suicide by drinking kool-aid simply because the people were conditioned to do whatever they were told, without critical thought.

ETA: Not directed at fwafwow at all, your post was just the newest that was showing when I decided to comment.

 

[Billy Goat]

I made it to the start of page 4.


All I see is this thread is asking for opinions of what people on this forum would do.



Seems half the people don't like memes, so I'd automatically find half the opinions subject, personally.

 

[Formidilosus]

Reliably and predictably? No

You have no idea what you are talking about. That bullet proof elk shoulder is thinner than an average piece of cardboard (a deer’s “shoulder” is even more a joke) and I have seen 50+ good .224 bullets put through those magical elk shoulders, generally going through the opposite one as well- because every single elk touched by a .224 has been downed and recovered quickly and without incident.


Of course you don’t have pictures of the mythical non varmint bullets that somehow couldn’t get through a squirrel and cardboard box (a deers shoulder), just like no one else does either.

 

[Turkeytider]

For those who believe that the .223 Remington round loaded with a minimum 77 grain bullet is sufficient for North American big game hunting, a different but related question, " Do you believe that the described .223 load is OPTIMAL for North American big game animals ? "

Is it just me, or would this entire discussion be considered ridiculous until relatively recently?

 

[yeti12]

For those who believe that the .223 Remington round loaded with a minimum 77 grain bullet is sufficient for North American big game hunting, a different but related question, " Do you believe that the described .223 load is OPTIMAL for North American big game animals ? "

For most shooters yes. Once the distances get farther and the shooter skill is greater, no. And I mean like going into an area expecting 600+ yard shots and no way to get closer. Most people have no buisness taking shots past a 223/77tmk effective range so it's perfect for them. For a very small minority, a 6um, 6prc etc would be the best. Unfortunately some don't reload so the 6.5 prc with heavy bullets comes into play.

 

[Formidilosus]

For those who believe that the .223 Remington round loaded with a minimum 77 grain bullet is sufficient for North American big game hunting, a different but related question, " Do you believe that the described .223 load is OPTIMAL for North American big game animals ? "

Down to around 1,800fps impact- yes. Without hesitation.


This is how ridiculous the position people take is, not you necessarily- just in general. In the 223 thread there are hundreds of dead animal wound channel and autopsy pictures, including from people that started out absolute sure that it was the stupidest thing ever to hunt with a 223, and then they tried it.


One of those magical deer shoulders that couldn’t stop a .224 bullet-



And another-


And another-



And another-




And another- though this ext side after going through a “shoulder”-


Though this is an antelope, but another exit after going through the “dreaded” quartering too shoulder-



Of course elk and moose are way different and magical-

Here a bull moose “shoulder”-





Hmmm. Is there a hole though that “armor”
plated “shoulder”?

Can’t be right, though this is the exit side of that moose’s shoulder that a 77gr TMK absolutely wrecked, and then traveled through both lungs and was caught in the exit side…



Gotta watch those “shoulders”




But then again, apparently a pointed stick is a death machine, but something that creates a 4” diameter wide hole 18 inches deep is “a stunt”.

Is it just me, or would this entire discussion be considered ridiculous until relatively recently?

You should read the entire 223 thread- every single post.

 

[mt100gr.]

Did you experience this yourself or did your favorite podcast convince you it’s not enough “wallop”?

Is "wallop" measured in pancakes??