Do you trust and support your state/region mule deer biologist?

[WMDM]

Absolutely zero trust or support to the biologists in North Dakota. They have "managed" our deer to the lowest level I've seen in 30 years (I am talking whiteail).

The biologists are employed by the G&F which is self-funded. They want revenue, that translates to selling as many tags as possible. The agency has always bent a knee to landowners as well so it's gratis tags for everyone.

I used to push the idea of quality deer management until realizing it was a pipe dream. Sad situation really.

 

[mulveymo]

As a state biologist myself, I think it's very important to separate the scientists from the ones who make the decisions. The field techs, biologists and staff at agencies are getting paid pretty poorly and are doing the work because they love it and take pride in their work.

Then the data they collect and the recommendations they make are taken by politically appointed commissions or influenced agency leads and often ignored or twisted.

Its a frustration I deal with daily. The science is ignored in place of political or social pressure, and management decisions are made because they'll cause the least amount of blowback, not because it's what's best for the resource.

 

[270Hunter]

As a state biologist myself, I think it's very important to separate the scientists from the ones who make the decisions. The field techs, biologists and staff at agencies are getting paid pretty poorly and are doing the work because they love it and take pride in their work.

Then the data they collect and the recommendations they make are taken by politically appointed commissions or influenced agency leads and often ignored or twisted.

Its a frustration I deal with daily. The science is ignored in place of political or social pressure, and management decisions are made because they'll cause the least amount of blowback, not because it's what's best for the resource.

Thank you for your perspective! Really helpful to hear from someone on the inside!

Would you mind saying what state you work for? If you don’t want to say I totally understand!

 

[Customweld]

Looking back I think most of the deadheads I’ve found have been forkies, so anecdotally that seems correct to me. Do you happen to know which rokcast touched on that? Would be interested in giving it a listen

I'll go back and see if I can get it narrowed down.

 

[Plainsman79]

Overall, yes I trust our state biologists with the tools and information they have, they do a good job doing their part for our herds.
It’s when politics get involved things start to go south. Governors, senators, car insurance companies, wealthy large landowner influence (usually tied in with senators) or federal funding $$$ for CWD all have a negative impact on our herds.

Drought, hard winter, disease, low fur prices (how many coyotes, cats and bears did you kill in the last year?) low fawn recruitment along with overgrown canopies of our forests (logging restrictions) energy exploration, no new or little serial growth on mule deer habitat, in some states high land taxes are forcing farmers and ranchers to graze or till every inch, dramatic weather patterns are all major factors the biologist are up against, some of which they can’t control others like huge habitat improvements are incredibly expensive. Our biologist’s do a good job with their hands partially tied.

Our herds are death by a thousand cuts, lots of different groups taking their slice of the pie for either a financial, political or title position and it’s been slowly declining herd health. The landscape now is completely different than what it was when we had the record herds of the 60’s.

 

[270Hunter]

It’s when politics get involved things start to go south. Governors, senators, car insurance companies, wealthy large landowner influence (usually tied in with senators) or federal funding $$$ for CWD all have a negative impact on our herds.

Amen!

 

[Solowhunter]

I'm 50/50 but really more like 75/25 for trusting a biologist, seems like this thread could be viewed from 2 separate perspectives.

1. Published quota, buck/doe ratios/ hunter harvest, etc. issued by F/G agencies.
2. Direct personal communication with F/G or Forest Service biologist.

1. I do study published data and feel that its only a piece to the puzzle, one needs to really understand how the report data is accumulated. Ive never really based my decision to apply for a tag or hunt an area solely on published data, in my experience negative data can help to discourage others from applying in an area.
2. I've had alot of direct communication with F/G and Forest Service biologist through the years (Colorado, Nevada, Arizona, Utah, California and Idaho). What I've learned is that being prepared to ask direct questions is way more productive than just "tell me about an area and where do I find game", the biologist I've communicated with appreciate a guy that's prepared and has knowledge of the area of discussion. Listen up and you'll get nuggets of info through the conversation. If the biologist hunts (which alot of them do) then I'd expect he/she is gonna withhold info.

I understand carrying capacity but would never doe hunt (or pay a hefty tag fee as a non-resident to hunt doe), in todays day/age I don't see that any area cold be over carrying capacity for deer, just my opinion. Now cow elk is a different story, I can see how taking a cow off the landscape could be beneficial...... and fill the freezer at he same time!

 

[270Hunter]

I understand carrying capacity but would never doe hunt (or pay a hefty tag fee as a non-resident to hunt doe), in todays day/age I don't see that any area cold be over carrying capacity for deer, just my opinion. Now cow elk is a different story, I can see how taking a cow off the landscape could be beneficial...... and fill the freezer at he same time!

Good comments!

So for the doe harvest I know a bunch of hunters are against it, but in some areas across the west, winter ranges are small and only getting smaller mainly due to encroachment. The biologists where I live say that our winter range quality is deteriorating because they are so many deer in such a small area. So they either have a doe hunt and allow hunters to harvest the does or we wait until another 22/23 winter and a ton of deer will die due to starvation because our winter range quality is poor. That’s where doe hunts can be beneficial!

 

[Customweld]

Very well stated. When real life data collides with political pressure, it's our herds that generally pay the price.

Overall, yes I trust our state biologists with the tools and information they have, they do a good job doing their part for our herds.
It’s when politics get involved things start to go south. Governors, senators, car insurance companies, wealthy large landowner influence (usually tied in with senators) or federal funding $$$ for CWD all have a negative impact on our herds.

Drought, hard winter, disease, low fur prices (how many coyotes, cats and bears did you kill in the last year?) low fawn recruitment along with overgrown canopies of our forests (logging restrictions) energy exploration, no new or little serial growth on mule deer habitat, in some states high land taxes are forcing farmers and ranchers to graze or till every inch, dramatic weather patterns are all major factors the biologist are up against, some of which they can’t control others like huge habitat improvements are incredibly expensive. Our biologist’s do a good job with their hands partially tied.

Our herds are death by a thousand cuts, lots of different groups taking their slice of the pie for either a financial, political or title position and it’s been slowly declining herd health. The landscape now is completely different than what it was when we had the record herds of the 60’s.

 

[Solowhunter]

Good comments!

So for the doe harvest I know a bunch of hunters are against it, but in some areas across the west, winter ranges are small and only getting smaller mainly due to encroachment. The biologists where I live say that our winter range quality is deteriorating because they are so many deer in such a small area. So they either have a doe hunt and allow hunters to harvest the does or we wait until another 22/23 winter and a ton of deer will die due to starvation because our winter range quality is poor. That’s where doe hunts can be beneficial!

This makes a lot of sense and is something that we need to understand that winter range and summer range have different carrying capacities. Its evident that encroachment will only increase in the future.

Thanks for bringing this to my attention, I'll be more apt to take a doe to benefit herd health/quality in the future...... regardless of the cost of a tag.

As a Rokslide biologist I trust you @270Hunter !

 

[270Hunter]

This makes a lot of sense and is something that we need to understand that winter range and summer range have different carrying capacities. Its evident that encroachment will only increase in the future.

Thanks for bringing this to my attention, I'll be more apt to take a doe to benefit herd health/quality in the future...... regardless of the cost of a tag.

As a Rokslide biologist I trust you @270Hunter !

Thank you but I’m far from a real biologist, just passionate about mule deer!


@fngTony or @robby denning can I get Rokslide biologist as my handle instead of FNG haha

 

[robby denning]

Thank you but I’m far from a real biologist, just passionate about mule deer!


@fngTony or @robby denning can I get Rokslide biologist as my handle instead of FNG haha

Hahaha

Just remember according to today’s poll results, you’d be painting a target on yourself for 38% of the members to take pop shots at lol.

 

[realunlucky]

I'll go back and see if I can get it narrowed down.

I think it was a BYU Professor Randy Larsen episode.

 

[realunlucky]

It always amazes me when random people think they are smarter than the people that do it daily.
I'm sure most people on here don't think someone off the street could replace them at thier job because the lookyloo's watched their process a couple weeks every fall.

 

[BluMtn]

Here in Washington the Biologist are young college grads that have been schooled in the anti-hunting class rooms. Then we have a wildlife commission that is nothing but a woke group of libs trying to figure out a way to shut down hunting in our state. The game dept has become a political arm of the lib Gov and his flunkies. The wolves, cats, and bears are so out of hand, our state is looking like Yellowstone with all the predators running free with no worries of getting shot.

 

[Customweld]

I think it was a BYU Professor Randy Larsen episode.

Thanks @realunlucky !

@graniteghost here is the podcast: About the 57 minute mark.
https://rokslide.com/forums/threads/fewer-bucks-more-fawns.354004/

 

[CorbLand]

Overall, yes, I trust them.

Supporting is dependent on the recommendations. Sometimes I think they are good. Sometimes not so much.

 

[Customweld]

I think it was a BYU Professor Randy Larsen episode.

It's interesting to me to go back and re-listen to these podcasts just to see how much my own view has been changed since listening to them. I mentioned it once in a different thread that some of these podcasts should be required listening in hunters ed classes.

 

[ianpadron]

The big game bios in my neck of the woods (Region 1 MT) are some of the hardest working and most knowledgeable dudes I know.

I run into 1 in particular multiple times a year in the backcountry surveying, pulling cameras, etc. He's always got some fun facts from his latest data set that are super cool to learn about

 

[270Hunter]

It’s not just Wyoming, this is a quote from the Utah DWR big game coordinator.


“It should be noted that harvesting buck deer does not drive deer populations,” DWR Big Game Coordinator Mike Wardle said. “That is a common misconception we hear when we make permit number recommendations each year. The most important factors that drive population size are the survival rates of adult does (since bucks don’t have babies), fawn production and fawn survival. The way we hunt buck deer in Utah doesn’t drive deer populations, but what happens with deer populations drives how we hunt buck deer.”