Do “ premium “ bullets really make a difference? Fact vs hype

[Rich M]

My bullet of choice is the Sierra Pro Hunter. Simple cup & core, flat base - short & stubby for those old 1-10 twist rifles... Also shoot partitions when superior penetration is required. Do recognize that some bullets are better than others for different circumstances.

I had a .243 "failure" at 220 yards on a 300# mule deer. High shoulder shot him near a boundary fence and he did not go down, hobbled a few steps and took second shot thru the lungs, dropping him. Federal blue box 100 gr soft point went thru the shoulder blade and into the upper chest cavity but that was it - couldn't believe it. Maybe 6 or 8 inches of penetration - the rib shot bullet was mushroomed and under opposite side skin.

Was it bullet design? Velocity? That I was using a 100 gr .243? Pretty sure each of these factor in. Some folks say the bullets worked just fine - didn't get the reaction i was expecting with that first shot. If it wasn't near a boundary line, woulda lung shot him and tracked if necessary. Anyway, would a ballistic tip have leveled that deer? Did he have too much "will to live"?

Recently bought 500 100 gr interlocks and will likely use those for target practice for an upcoming antelope hunt. If i can work up an accurate load, may be a good hunting bullet. If not, have about 150 Sierra Pro Hunters left (box + 1/2). Gonna hoard those, maybe try Ballistic Tips or SST. Question is do we really need a premium bullet on an antelope? Inclination says not really.

 

[S-3 ranch]

Funny but, 100% true. Outdoor Life or word of mouth "back in the day" is what sold stuff. My Grandfather was all about the Sierra Game King.

@Axlrod makes the perfect point; a few cents more for a premium bullet is but a small portion of the overall hunt cost. Not to mention, the TTSX is about twice as much as the ELD-X and I wouldn't exactly call the TTSX a "premium" or high end bullet. I only shoot them because CA is dumb.

No when I was a kid, we would go to the feed store and he would say “”we need some 30-30 , 270 & 243 shells,””
“ok harry Winchester or Remington?? “”

anything else required a 45 minute drive to Oshmans sporting goods store

 

[BjornF16]

No when I was a kid, we would go to the feed store and he would say “”we need some 30-30 , 270 & 243 shells,””
“ok harry Winchester or Remington?? “”

anything else required a 45 minute drive to Oshmans sporting goods store

Oshman's?

That's a throwback...lol. We had one about 10 minutes away

 

[Wapiti1]

Construction wise, the interlock has a small swaged ring inside that is supposed to hold the core into the copper cup when the bullet deforms. It kind of works. It also has a tapered jacket to help make that pretty mushroom. It also has a lead tip that is prone to deforming and tanks the BC.

The Berger is just simple drawn cup and core. They will separate more easily than the interlock based on design notions. It doesn't have an engineered tapered jacket like the interlock. The jacket is pretty uniform in thickness from base to tip. Copper hollow tip that is pretty robust, but you need to keep the hole open.

The ELD-X also has an interlock ring, so it is a more streamlined interlock. It also has a tapered jacket with very thin copper at the nose. It's intended to upset at low velocity needed for long range, but not blow apart at high. It does that probably as well as it can being cup and core. If you want high BC and better penetration, this is the choice. It's still going to blow up at high velocity, though. Polymer tip that is pretty robust, but can deform.

The jacket thickness is the main difference in reality. Tapered will mushroom more consistently through the velocity range. Non-tapered will upset violently down to a certain velocity, then mushroom more traditionally. Jacket thickness is the determining factor to at what velocity it upsets, and how much it does so.

Keep in mind that killing of the animal, outside of a CNS hit, is due to permanent tissue damage that leads to blood pressure drop. A single mushroomed bullet will damage less than a fragmenting bullet resulting in a slower death. Any combination of fragments and mushroom are faster than say a Barnes that generally has zero fragments. This has been proven with work done by Fackler and others.

Jeremy

 

[Lawnboi]

In regards to Berger and vs hornady, your paying for consistency.

There’s a reason you can’t find any of the popular Berger bullets.

 

[dirtytough]

In regards to Berger and vs hornady, your paying for consistency.

There’s a reason you can’t find any of the popular Berger bullets.

Ok now I’m curious. In another thread I believe you mentioned you are going to be shooting 88’s or 75’s out of your shorty 22 Creed.

If you believe a different brand is more consistent why aren’t you using it?

 

[Lawnboi]

Ok now I’m curious. In another thread I believe you mentioned you are going to be shooting 88’s or 75’s out of your shorty 22 Creed.

If you believe a different brand is more consistent why aren’t you using it?

That’s where it gets muddy.

Reason I chose the 88eldm for the 22 creed: I like tipped bullet performance on deer. Though I havnt used the 88s, I like that eldm/x and tmk expand immediately. On deer size game I prefer this to the typical 2-3” before expanding bergers. On top of that 500 yards will be a long shot for the gun, and at those ranges and the sizes of targets I’m shooting at I think I’ll get adequate performance out of the bullet. I could likely say that about all my rifles shooting at game; the size and range of my target dosnt make me require what I view as a better bullet in terms of consistency. Berger also dosnt make a 22 cal big game bullet. Wish they would.

Bergers just seem to be more consistent for me for long range shooting. Iv shot quite a few 140eldm, and just find more hits at distance coming from bergers. And less head scratching when I feel I did everything right. I don’t know if it’s the consistency of the bc, consistency lot to lot or what, but Iv noticed it to the point that I prefer bergers. Now I havnt shot the ATip, and it seems most competitors shooting Hornady are using the atip. If I couldn’t get a Berger to shoot in a match gun I’d suck it up and spend way more on some ATips to try.

 

[dirtytough]

That’s where it gets muddy.

Reason I chose the 88eldm for the 22 creed: I like tipped bullet performance on deer. Though I havnt used the 88s, I like that eldm/x and tmk expand immediately. On deer size game I prefer this to the typical 2-3” before expanding bergers. On top of that 500 yards will be a long shot for the gun, and at those ranges and the sizes of targets I’m shooting at I think I’ll get adequate performance out of the bullet. I could likely say that about all my rifles shooting at game; the size and range of my target dosnt make me require what I view as a better bullet in terms of consistency. Berger also dosnt make a 22 cal big game bullet. Wish they would.

Bergers just seem to be more consistent for me for long range shooting. Iv shot quite a few 140eldm, and just find more hits at distance coming from bergers. And less head scratching when I feel I did everything right. I don’t know if it’s the consistency of the bc, consistency lot to lot or what, but Iv noticed it to the point that I prefer bergers. Now I havnt shot the ATip, and it seems most competitors shooting Hornady are using the atip. If I couldn’t get a Berger to shoot in a match gun I’d suck it up and spend way more on some ATips to try.

Gotcha. I never have liked the ELD M on game personally. I haven't tried the 75's/88's though. I've only shot the 52's, 147's, 180's, and 225's. The 52's only at coyotes. On targets I have had random bullets hit sideways with the 52's. Most of the time they miss the paper completely and I can see the heat signature on the rubber target holder. On coyotes they perform like a Vmax. It's a factory Remington 22-250 so it has a slow twist and I'm not leaning on them. Actually not even at max according to book loads.

The 147's and 180's gave erratic results on deer/antelope. Sometimes they would completely come apart and sometimes they would almost pencil through. The 180's were really accurate but after 14 animals I quit using them.

I haven't used the ELD X line. I did see a coyote shot with one. 6 Creed factory ammo. 150 yards. Perfect shot and the coyote ran way further than I have seen in a long time. After listening to Hornady on a podcast it worked like it was supposed to from what I could tell. Penciled in for a few inches then expanded. By that time it was almost exiting the off side on the coyote. Probably way better on thicker game.

 

[Lawnboi]

Gotcha. I never have liked the ELD M on game personally. I haven't tried the 75's/88's though. I've only shot the 52's, 147's, 180's, and 225's. The 52's only at coyotes. On targets I have had random bullets hit sideways with the 52's. Most of the time they miss the paper completely and I can see the heat signature on the rubber target holder. On coyotes they perform like a Vmax. It's a factory Remington 22-250 so it has a slow twist and I'm not leaning on them. Actually not even at max according to book loads.

The 147's and 180's gave erratic results on deer/antelope. Sometimes they would completely come apart and sometimes they would almost pencil through. The 180's were really accurate but after 14 animals I quit using them.

I haven't used the ELD X line. I did see a coyote shot with one. 6 Creed factory ammo. 150 yards. Perfect shot and the coyote ran way further than I have seen in a long time. After listening to Hornady on a podcast it worked like it was supposed to from what I could tell. Penciled in for a few inches then expanded. By that time it was almost exiting the off side on the coyote. Probably way better on thicker game.

Curious what bullets you have moved to?

Overall the most consistent performance Iv seen from the tmk. The eldm/x Iv seen and used have usually blown up or typical hole in with a little bigger hole out.

Bergers on game, only deer for me, it sees they don’t open up for a few inches, and on something like a doe they just see to stay on their feet a little longer.


You’re shooting 85.5s in the 22 creed correct?

 

[Rob5589]

No when I was a kid, we would go to the feed store and he would say “”we need some 30-30 , 270 & 243 shells,””
“ok harry Winchester or Remington?? “”

anything else required a 45 minute drive to Oshmans sporting goods store

My Grandfather's name was Harry. Kooky...

 

[dirtytough]

Curious what bullets you have moved to?

Overall the most consistent performance Iv seen from the tmk. The eldm/x Iv seen and used have usually blown up or typical hole in with a little bigger hole out.

Bergers on game, only deer for me, it sees they don’t open up for a few inches, and on something like a doe they just see to stay on their feet a little longer.


You’re shooting 85.5s in the 22 creed correct?

In the 7mm I loaded up 195’s but quit using it. I got new rifles built about the same time. (New! Shiny! Does the same thing.)

In the 6.5 156’s, and the 300 215’s. Haven’t killed enough with them to say they are same/better/worse.

Yea the 85.5’s in the 22 Creed. They seem to stone coyotes like a Vmax. But with a Vmax a straight on dog or a shoulder shot would leave a big hole most of the time on the entrance. The 85.5 hasn’t with that same shot placement. But does leave a big hole if I hit back where it’s soft.

 

[f16jack]

7mm Rem Mag. I used to use 175 gr. Nosler Partitions. Had a good 3/4' group at 100 yds.

I've taken 9 elk with this load. All shots in the heart/lung. The average on these was 3 bullets and 140 yards until they tipped over.

I then switched to Berger 180 VLD hunters, after watching a video by and chatting with Gunwerks' Mike Davidson.

I've taken 7 elk with my 180 VLD's. All but 2 were one shot kills, and all but one dropped where they stood. The one that didn't tip at impact simply walked 10' and I put a 2nd bullet into him (if they're still standing - keep shooting).

Berger: 1 shot, drop where they stand.
Nosler: 3 shots, and try to track for 140 yards after dark in the black timber.

I'm sold on Berger. You can't argue with the field results.

However - If you place a Berger into a quarter it will not penetrate and you'll be tracking a wounded animal. Only use Bergers if you are disciplined in your shooting and take confident heart/lung shots.

Energy wise, with longer range shooting, the Berger is a Low Drag bullet. It has the energy at 800 yards that the Nosler had at 600 yards. The lethal impact is from the hydrostatic shock of the energy transfer from the bullet. I like the idea of more downrange energy with the same muzzle velocity.

I saw the Berger 7mm 195 VLD mentioned above. I loaded some of these, but they require a quicker barrel twist than most folks (including me) have. So I moved back to the 180 VLD's. I've still got some of the 195's lying around if anyone wants them.

 

[KenLee]

7mm Rem Mag. I used to use 175 gr. Nosler Partitions. Had a good 3/4' group at 100 yds.

I've taken 9 elk with this load. All shots in the heart/lung. The average on these was 3 bullets and 140 yards until they tipped over.

I then switched to Berger 180 VLD hunters, after watching a video by and chatting with Gunwerks' Mike Davidson.

I've taken 7 elk with my 180 VLD's. All but 2 were one shot kills, and all but one dropped where they stood. The one that didn't tip at impact simply walked 10' and I put a 2nd bullet into him (if they're still standing - keep shooting).

Berger: 1 shot, drop where they stand.
Nosler: 3 shots, and try to track for 140 yards after dark in the black timber.

I'm sold on Berger. You can't argue with the field results.

However - If you place a Berger into a quarter it will not penetrate and you'll be tracking a wounded animal. Only use Bergers if you are disciplined in your shooting and take confident heart/lung shots.

Energy wise, with longer range shooting, the Berger is a Low Drag bullet. It has the energy at 800 yards that the Nosler had at 600 yards. The lethal impact is from the hydrostatic shock of the energy transfer from the bullet. I like the idea of more downrange energy with the same muzzle velocity.

I saw the Berger 7mm 195 VLD mentioned above. I loaded some of these, but they require a quicker barrel twist than most folks (including me) have. So I moved back to the 180 VLD's. I've still got some of the 195's lying around if anyone wants them.

At what difference are you shooting these Elk that can tote off 3 Partitions? Just curious.

 

[Formidilosus]

However - If you place a Berger into a quarter it will not penetrate and you'll be tracking a wounded animal.

Where are you getting that a Berger won’t penetrate a “shoulder”?

 

[Formidilosus]

At what difference are you shooting these Elk that can tote off 3 Partitions? Just curious.

For people that shoot until the animal falls, instead of hitting it (or believing you did) and then sitting there and watching for 30 seconds to several minutes until they fall shooting multiple times is par for the course.

 

[f16jack]

The distance for the 3 partitions required was generally around 250 yards. They go into the lungs, mushroom, and exit out the far side, taking some of their energy with them. The elk continue following the cows. I then pump another bullet in, and another, and eventually the elk falls.
This elk had 3 bullets (see below) just behind the shoulder. The other 2 are on the other side.
The shots were from 100 to 150 yards. They were Nosler Partitions.



In the field I've eventually killed 9 elk with Nosler Partitions (multiple shots, seemingly uninjured). This doesn't happen with Bergers. The 7 Berger elk I took dropped where they stood.

 

[f16jack]

from above: "Where are you getting that a Berger won’t penetrate a “shoulder”?"

Personal experience, from the elk I shot this year. I had suppressor baffle strikes and hit a large bull at 400 yards twice, once in a front quarter and once in the rear. I eventually followed him over a ridge and dropped him short range (over 10 minutes later). The Bergers did not penetrate the shoulder or the hind, and he was able to limp away.



And this is why on YouTube "The Real Gunsmith" can't stand thin-skinned bullets like the Berger. He hates guiding hunters who slam a thin-skin into a shoulder, resulting in a long tracking job or a lost elk.

 

[WeiserBucks]

"The real gunsmith" is the least credible source of information possible.

 

[BRTreedogs]

So you had a baffle strike and still assumed the bullet straightened out and hit tip first?

 

[f16jack]

No prob. He is against the Bergers, and I hunt with them. I don't have to give or take away any credibility from him to listen and then make my own decisions.

The inability for a Berger to penetrate a shoulder, though, is real. Personal experience. If I were aiming at a shoulder I'd want a bullet like my Nosler Partitions.