Daughters first deer with a bow!!! Great footage

[RedPaint]

Very interesting thread.

 

[Stalker69]

Man, then why in the hell did you post the video ? You posted it for the world to see. Of course your going to get feed back, good or bad. Your getting some slack from fellow hunters, when this finds the general public, it will be worse. I personally would not have posted it.

 

[atmat]

Man, then why in the hell did you post the video ? You posted it for the world to see. Of course you’re going to get feed back, good or bad. You’re getting some slack from fellow hunters, when this finds the general public, it will be worse. I personally would not have posted it.

It’s not worth the argument. Plenty have tried to reason with him but it was not well-received.

 

[Justin Byers]

Man, then why in the hell did you post the video ? You posted it for the world to see. Of course your going to get feed back, good or bad. Your getting some slack from fellow hunters, when this finds the general public, it will be worse. I personally would not have posted it.

Ironically out of 2.8k views on YouTube, not a single negative comment, or thumbs down……

But on here?….. with “fellow hunters”??? Plenty….. you guys are a hoot.

 

[fatlander]

That mom was going to abandon them the second she came into heat which could have been as early as 25 days from now. You guys out there lecturing does about leaving their little ones to go sleep around? Good on you dad and good on your daughter. She made a great shot. Awesome memories made that she’ll forever cherish.

Whitetails have reached the point of pests in most of this country. Furthermore, they’re a prey species. They’re supposed to feed the predators of the landscape. There’s no old folks homes for whitetails. They’re all going to die. Virtue signaling about shooting does with fawns is pointless. No one cares.


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[atmat]

Ironically out of 2.8k views on YouTube, not a single negative comment, or thumbs down……

But on here?….. with “fellow hunters”??? Plenty….. you guys are a hoot.

Congratulations on your 2.8k views. You must feel really accomplished.

If you don’t like it here then leave, brother. No one is forcing you stay and complain.

 

[fngTony]

I think there’s been enough sharing of our different opinions, and the OP wasn’t looking for a debate on whether that doe should or should not have been taken so going forward, let’s stay respectful to each other and keep the discussion about other aspects of the video.

 

[fwafwow]

I think there’s been enough sharing of our different opinions, and the OP wasn’t looking for a debate on whether that doe should or should not have been taken so going forward, let’s stay respectful to each other and keep the discussion about other aspects of the video.

Nice shot and like the use of the safety harness. I wish I could have gotten my daughter interested in hunting, at any age.

I would consider making the YouTube video not public, not because of any of the above arguments, but because of your daughter’s age. Too many demented people in the world today.

 

[philos]

Nice shot and like the use of the safety harness. I wish I could have gotten my daughter interested in hunting, at any age.

I would consider making the YouTube video not public, not because of any of the above arguments, but because of your daughter’s age. Too many demented people in the world today.

All debate aspects aside-I think fwafwow has a good point. You might have 1 billion good views but it only take one unhinged wack job to make your live miserable.

 

[tntrker]

I apologize for being the wackjob on this one. Sorry, your Daughter looked happy and excited and that’s all that matters really. Again, sorry.

 

[fwafwow]

I apologize for being the wackjob on this one. Sorry, your Daughter looked happy and excited and that’s all that matters really. Again, sorry.

Nice post. It’s unusual to see anyone concede a point or ever give ground, much less apologize. It’s a lost art.

 

[Justin Byers]

I apologize for being the wackjob on this one. Sorry, your Daughter looked happy and excited and that’s all that matters really. Again, sorry.

No problem man. I really do appreciate that. She was pretty happy and is definitely hooked on bowhunting I think.

 

[Gsquared]

I appreciate your thoughts. I honestly do. You are respectful and thoughtful. However,

With regard to not allowing a hunter to shoot that doe, that is the point.... I was not asking for anyone's opinions on whether I should have allowed my daughter to shoot that doe. I wasn't asking whether you agree or disagree, There is nothing to discuss... It was a legal deer, during a legal season, with a variety of solid, game management reasons as to why I am more than willing to shoot a doe with fawns at this time of year on this particular property. There are many contributing factors to why one makes the decision they do in the field, and it is not my obligation to go through the multitude of reasons why I chose to allow (and encourage) my daughter to take that particular, very legal, deer. My reason for posting was not in an effort to have the ethics police hand me their decisions on what they would do, or why I was in the wrong. I have been in this game a very, very long time, and I have a thorough understanding of game management, ethics, and legality. While I understand, and agree with your point regarding teaching good values to young hunters, and ethical dilemmas, this, by far, does not fall under that category. I have already laid out clearly and concisely why I stand where I stand on this particular issue. I am not interested in re-stating it again. However, I will re-state that I was not expecting people on a hunting forum to make emotional, anthropomorphic statements about me and my 13 year old daughter being "heartless hunters". That is laughable to the point of absurd.

The idea of a higher morale ground is a subjective one to say the least. What you view as immoral I may view as moral. That is where the laws and regulations come into play. This case is about a young lady's first deer with a bow, with a legal tag, in a legal season, in an area so overrun with deer that the ranchers and farmers will drop 30 of them with a rifle during February due to the amount of damage they are causing. (and FWP doesn't bat an eye, and has actually encouraged them to do so at times!!!) We, as hunters, hold these animals in high regard, much in part due to the fact that they are the resource we love to pursue. (Also a moral dilemma to some, as we kill the very thing we love).... But... to a rancher or farmer that feeds his family, and to a greater degree the world at large, these animals are no more valuable than a gopher, and in many ways more destructive. We, as hunters, do not own the corner on these animals, and quite frankly neither does the state. The land they live on, the food they eat, are owned by the farmer and ranchers. Very often our perspective as hunters is just as much skewed as the non-hunting public's when held up to the lens of perspective and needs of the farmer/rancher.

While I respect your point on hashing things out amongst ourselves, that too is a fine line. Sure, there are scenarios that are good to have healthy debate over, but we also are our own worst enemy at times and play the part of a cannibal, eating our own. I make no apologies for being a killer, and training my children to be the same, much like a mother lioness teaching her cubs, and at times having to hold the zebra down while the cub chokes the life out of it. We are predators, and a part of nature. I honestly could care way less about a group of non-hunters attacking me than a group here on a hunting forum. I expect it from an uneducated, spineless, effeminate, disconnected-from-reality public that thinks meat comes from a grocery store, or worse yet, that one should not eat meat at all. However, I am disheartened and disappointed to see it from my fellow hunting community who should know better. As atman put it "be better"....

Your statement "I would simply disagree with this harvest, but if the deer is processed and consumed we have to live with it" speaks volumes. I don't care if you can "live with it". I wasn't asking if you could "live with it", I wasn't looking for an opinion, nor did my post warrant it. You are free to NOT shoot just as I, and my daughter, are free TO shoot. It is not an ethical or moral question, particularly when you understand times, seasons, deer behavior, and management practices specific to a particular area. I would venture most of you do not live in rural Montana, particularly Eastern Montana with way over objective deer numbers. I am very serious, if any of you stated your sentiments to pretty much any local rancher/farmer they would scoff and show you the door. You guys are just disconnected from reality and have made these animals your modern day idol.

Any of you can choose to not shoot a doe with fawns if you wish. That is your God given, American freedom-loving choice. I respect that, but ask the same of you. This is not a moral debate, anymore than a vegan trying to tell me I am immoral for eating meat.

Open question:
Does the species of animal matter here to you or other Roksliders?
Meaning would you have shot, or allowed your daughter to shoot a sow with a couple cubs?

No judgement, just curious if from a biological standpoint, species of animal perspective, if this is an instance of situational ethics, because you fell that doe was so ubiquitous and valued less the potential outcomes of the fawns.

Look forward to the feedback.

 

[Justin Byers]

Open question:
Does the species of animal matter here to you or other Roksliders?
Meaning would you have shot, or allowed your daughter to shoot a sow with a couple cubs?

No judgement, just curious if from a biological standpoint, species of animal perspective, if this is an instance of situational ethics, because you fell that doe was so ubiquitous and valued less the potential outcomes of the fawns.

Look forward to the feedback.

@Gsquared - I can't speak for other Roksliders, but as for me, yes species matter. It is not a one size fits all, across all big game. There are different numbers and objectives for each. There aren't an explosion of black bears, quite the opposite, but I'm glad you used them as an example, because it is established fact that the cubs need their mom for a much longer time in order to survive, including denning up with them their first year. There is also a huge threat of predation from boars. Whitetails in particular are everywhere, in quantities well over management objectives. As already stated, by myself and others, their numbers are so great that they are causing immense damage to crops. Some of the farmers/ranchers I know in this area will shoot dozens of them off their hay stacks in the winter and leave them lay for the coyotes. Not saying I am a fan of that, but it is their way of dealing with the issue. They are not doing that with bears, or antelope, etc.. I do know elk can pose a problem, and at times mule deer, but in no way even close to whitetails. Whitetails have proven to be the hardiest, most adaptable, highest procreating of all ungulates, even thriving, in urban and developed areas. (i.e. Seek One videos) They reproduce at an exponential rate in comparison to other species. So no, I am not concerned at all with the fawn survival rate, especially because I am a student of these deer and watch these fawns on this property thrive throughout the season without their moms. This is an incredibly deer dense area, with abundant food, and little predation outside of humans. I do believe this decision is more or less area specific, but with the population of whitetails thriving all across most of the US I would venture to say any Ag rich land with good habitat would be similar to this specific area.


I reached out to am actual biologist regarding this thread and have posted his reply below. Oddly enough, he echoed exactly what I have been saying, but what do I know....?:

"As I watched that video I wondered how long it would be before someone on the forum gave you grief about letting her orphan those fawns. There are those in every crowd, it’s probably the same guys who will tell you that you need to be shooting “those old barren does”, which is basically a myth.

In short I would like you to tell them that they are a bunch of bleeding hearts who are thinking with their feelings and not their heads. But that obviously wouldn’t help anything lol!

In all seriousness though, it does not matter that she shot her, nor would it make a difference if she let her go. At the end of the day, It is really all about your personal choice. The only question that should come into play here is what your population is like and do you need to be shooting does? if the answer is, the population is great and we can/need to shoot some does, then y’all made the right choice.
At that point in the deers lifecycle, they are completely independent of the need for their mother. Yes, maybe they might occasionally still nurse a second but nutritionally they are past the point of needing it. They do not need their mother to make it through the winter, their mother is not going to be protecting them from any substantial predator, and since this is not a Disney movie they do not need their mother around to teach them anything. They have everything they need to thrive right now. There have been several studies, I would have to look them up, that show there is no significant difference in the health and body size between orphaned fawns, and non-orphaned fawns. Both groups averaged somewhere around 80% survival rates also in those studies.

I do not know what the population dynamics are like where y’all are hunting, I come from a totally different perspective along the gulf coast. There are piles of different factors to take into account depending on the region, but in general I would say there was nothing wrong with what you did. Once again, the level of doe harvest is the question, not whether it was acceptable to shoot the doe with fawns. In my area of Louisiana I routinely shoot does with spotted fawns, and it’s not too uncommon here to see a fawn with spots all the way past Thanksgiving.

Your point about season dates being set late enough that it does not matter anymore is correct. I would also add that if there really was biologically a problem with killing a doe that had spotted fawns running with her, there would be rules in place against it like the rules everywhere that I know of saying that you cannot shoot a sow bear with cubs.

Anyway, at the end of the day as long as you're both happy with it then that is all that matters! Best of luck on the future hunts!"

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

@Gsquared - I can't speak for other Roksliders, but as for me, yes species matter. It is not a one size fits all, across all big game. There are different numbers and objectives for each. There aren't an explosion of black bears, quite the opposite, but I'm glad you used them as an example, because it is established fact that the cubs need their mom for a much longer time in order to survive, including denning up with them their first year. There is also a huge threat of predation from boars. Whitetails in particular are everywhere, in quantities well over management objectives. As already stated, by myself and others, their numbers are so great that they are causing immense damage to crops. Some of the farmers/ranchers I know in this area will shoot dozens of them off their hay stacks in the winter and leave them lay for the coyotes. Not saying I am a fan of that, but it is their way of dealing with the issue. They are not doing that with bears, or antelope, etc.. I do know elk can pose a problem, and at times mule deer, but in no way even close to whitetails. Whitetails have proven to be the hardiest, most adaptable, procreating of all ungulates, even surviving and thriving, in urban and developed areas. (i.e. Seek One videos) They are reproduce at an exponential rate in comparison to other species. So yes, I am not concerned at all with the fawn survival rate, especially because I am a student of these deer and watch these fawns on this property thrive throughout the season without their moms. This is an incredibly deer dense area, with abundant food, and little predation outside of humans. I do believe this decision is more or less area specific, but with the population of whitetails thriving all across most of the US I would venture to say any Ag rich land with good habitat would be similar to this specific area.


I reached out to am actual biologist regarding this thread and have posted his reply below. Oddly enough, he echoed exactly what I have been saying, but what do I know....?:

"As I watched that video I wondered how long it would be before someone on the forum gave you grief about letting her orphan those fawns. There are those in every crowd, it’s probably the same guys who will tell you that you need to be shooting “those old barren does”, which is basically a myth.

In short I would like you to tell them that they are a bunch of bleeding hearts who are thinking with their feelings and not their heads. But that obviously wouldn’t help anything lol!

In all seriousness though, it does not matter that she shot her, nor would it make a difference if she let her go. At the end of the day, It is really all about your personal choice. The only question that should come into play here is what your population is like and do you need to be shooting does? if the answer is, the population is great and we can/need to shoot some does, then y’all made the right choice.
At that point in the deers lifecycle, they are completely independent of the need for their mother. Yes, maybe they might occasionally still nurse a second but nutritionally they are past the point of needing it. They do not need their mother to make it through the winter, their mother is not going to be protecting them from any substantial predator, and since this is not a Disney movie they do not need their mother around to teach them anything. They have everything they need to thrive right now. There have been several studies, I would have to look them up, that show there is no significant difference in the health and body size between orphaned fawns, and non-orphaned fawns. Both groups averaged somewhere around 80% survival rates also in those studies.

I do not know what the population dynamics are like where y’all are hunting, I come from a totally different perspective along the gulf coast. There are piles of different factors to take into account depending on the region, but in general I would say there was nothing wrong with what you did. Once again, the level of doe harvest is the question, not whether it was acceptable to shoot the doe with fawns. In my area of Louisiana I routinely shoot does with spotted fawns, and it’s not too uncommon here to see a fawn with spots all the way past Thanksgiving.

Your point about season dates being set late enough that it does not matter anymore is correct. I would also add that if there really was biologically a problem with killing a doe that had spotted fawns running with her, there would be rules in place against it like the rules everywhere that I know of saying that you cannot shoot a sow bear with cubs.

Anyway, at the end of the day as long as you're both happy with it then that is all that matters! Best of luck on the future hunts!"

Not a fan of the video style and the “subscribe” pop ups. Let the content speak for itself and if people “like and subscribe” without you begging for it, then let it happen.

Congrats to your daughter on the deer. Great memories!

 

[Stalker69]

We try and kill as many coyotes as we can, same with pigs, try not to let any walk away. How ever we don’t hunt them while they have pups. Or until pups have grown. Mice, rats age don’t matter.

 

[fatlander]

We try and kill as many coyotes as we can, same with pigs, try not to let any walk away. How ever we don’t hunt them while they have pups. Or until pups have grown. Mice, rats age don’t matter.

Are you hoping that the coyote pups won’t somehow grow up to be coyotes? Or the piglets won’t grow up to be pigs?

A pest is a pest. If they’re truly a pest, nipping them in the bud is the way.


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[Justin Byers]

We try and kill as many coyotes as we can, same with pigs, try not to let any walk away. How ever we don’t hunt them while they have pups. Or until pups have grown. Mice, rats age don’t matter.

@Stalker69 maybe that's not how it works in your neck of the woods, but here in MT there is no coyote season. They are hunted year round. Pups or no pups.

 

[Stalker69]

@Stalker69 maybe that's not how it works in your neck of the woods, but here in MT there is no coyote season. They are hunted year round. Pups or no pups.

Oh we can, but we opt not to. As was the question regarding if the species matters, if we shoot mothers with young. Plus the hide is no good in the summer months.

 

[TFrank]