D-Loop (only) vs. Nock Points + D-Loop

[wildernessmaster]

As some of my other post have indicated, this is my first pass at some of this...

New strings on a bow.

Should I:
1. Tie a D-Loop (only) and shoot it for a while, then put a nock point and d-loop on - to let the strings break in?
2. Go ahead and tie the nock point and d-loop before breaking in the strings?

I notice on most of my bows (some shop built, some factory) that the D-loop does not have any nock points on them. What is the thought (beyond the above question) of nock points and d-loop vs just d-loop?

Thank you!

 

[wayoh22]

Nock points allow you to change your d-loop easily without having to guess where to tie it in. You'll always tie in your d-loop on the outside of the nock points. Think of it as a constant variable in an equation. I believe it also helps in alleviating nock pinch.

 

[wildernessmaster]

Nock points allow you to change your d-loop easily without having to guess where to tie it in. You'll always tie in your d-loop on the outside of the nock points. Think of it as a constant variable in an equation. I believe it also helps in alleviating nock pinch.

Thank you for taking the time to write that. It was very informative ... I know my question is so n00b'ish, but I swear this bow stuff is like a mixture of rocket science and mysticism .

 

[Zac]

It can depend on what rest you are running as well. A cable driver you may want nocking points above and below due to the shaft dropping as the string is in motion. A limb driven rest is going to stabilize the shaft the majority of the way on the string. In this situation it's nice to have a single lower nock set to provide upward pressure in order to press down on the launcher with the shaft.

 

[wildernessmaster]

It can depend on what rest you are running as well. A cable driver you may want nocking points above and below due to the shaft dropping as the string is in motion. A limb driven rest is going to stabilize the shaft the majority of the way on the string. In this situation it's nice to have a single lower nock set to provide upward pressure in order to press down on the launcher with the shaft.

Hmmm.... Ok that is definitely something I didn't know. My rest on this bow is the matthews cable driven rest... Thoughts?

Where would one go to figure out all of the nock point to rest issues? I was lead to believe you line the arrow up centered in the berger hole and 90 degrees to the string. Is that not correct?

 

[stonewall]

i have done both. no nock points, 4 under, 2 above, currently doing just 3 under... it appears i shoot just as poorly regardless

 

[Billy Goat]

What is you ATA on the bow? On a short ATA bow I'm more inclined to run just a d-loop. It's a matter of string angle. Longer ATA you have more to play with. Generally I'd prefer to run tied nocks inside of my d-loop. However on something that is less than 30 ATA I'd go with a straught d-loop. That's not a bow I'm gonna have a pile of shots on and be worried about replacing the loop.

 

[Zac]

Hmmm.... Ok that is definitely something I didn't know. My rest on this bow is the matthews cable driven rest... Thoughts?

Where would one go to figure out all of the nock point to rest issues? I was lead to believe you line the arrow up centered in the berger hole and 90 degrees to the string. Is that not correct?

If your shooting a Mathews you want to run your nock in the dead center of the string. I would tie a set above and below with a cable driver.

 

[Felix40]

I never mess with nock points. I just don’t see the need. If I need to tie a new loop on I just put it where the old one was and twist up or down depending on how it shoots. Keep it simple.

 

[Mountain_Life]

I thought nock points went out with aluminum arrows... tying new D loop on isn't an issue because you can see where you nock has been sliding onto the string. And if it's off, just spin it up or down as Felix40 mentioned.

 

[wildernessmaster]

What is you ATA on the bow? On a short ATA bow I'm more inclined to run just a d-loop. It's a matter of string angle. Longer ATA you have more to play with. Generally I'd prefer to run tied nocks inside of my d-loop. However on something that is less than 30 ATA I'd go with a straught d-loop. That's not a bow I'm gonna have a pile of shots on and be worried about replacing the loop.

Its a short axle... Around 28". Can you explain why the string angle would make a difference in nock points and tying them?

I do shoot my short axle a lot, preparing for hunting season. In fact I am restringing it after a year and half because I shot it so much.

 

[wildernessmaster]

If your shooting a Mathews you want to run your nock in the dead center of the string. I would tie a set above and below with a cable driver.

Can you explain the term "cable driver"?

 

[wildernessmaster]

I thought nock points went out with aluminum arrows... tying new D loop on isn't an issue because you can see where you nock has been sliding onto the string. And if it's off, just spin it up or down as Felix40 mentioned.

Not questioning your wisdom but why does everyone recommend them and all the online DIY videos show/talk about putting them on? This is where my world derails in the bow world... In the gun world, while there are some nuances to the way you may do some "things", normally you gotta do the thing - its just how. For instance you HAVE to put a barrel nut on an AR15 to lock down the barrel/receiver. There is no "oh maybe you do or maybe you don't" - YOU DO...

In the bow world, when I ask what starts as a straightforward question - because every video I have watch on setting up a bow shows tying nock points - I start getting the variations of "of that's optional", "or that went out in the 80's" and the like....

Then there is the additional "ask any 10 people and get 20 answers" of the variations of the answers to the question... "sometimes I tie 1, sometimes I tie 2, sometimes I don't tie any"; "if your bow is short axle..."... Its like trying to build the human genome blind.

It has led to a lot of frustration.

Really trying to learn, so please don't take my response as a challenge. It just seems like you gotta be a shaman and talk to the gods to own a bow.

 

[stonewall]

The shop I use here still puts bows out the door w/o nocking points And I consider those techs very competent. I think nocking points might allow for more precision. But In my own very amateurish experience I can’t tell a difference in my accuracy

Braden Gellenthien in a video says he does 4 on bottom and 2 on top because it puts the release right behind the arrow. Something like that anyway

 

[Billy Goat]

Its a short axle... Around 28". Can you explain why the string angle would make a difference in nock points and tying them?

I do shoot my short axle a lot, preparing for hunting season. In fact I am restringing it after a year and half because I shot it so much.

I'll try to explain it the way I see it. You can decide for yourself. The longer the ata is the more "free" string space there is. Say on a 30 ATA you have something like 27" of string to play with (taking) 1.5" off per cam from ATA. If you have a 34 ATA you then have 31". This is at rest of course, but the idea follows. So when you put a loop on without nocks it's about 3/4" -7/8" in height. Once you put nocks in the loop it grows about 3/8- maybe 1/2". Not much but some. That is more space taken up on the string because the string stays straight behind your nock between your loop points, the more string that is in between your loop points is less "free" string available. This makes for a sharper angle at your loops on your string. It's this angle is where I see a lot of wear on bowstrings. So by decreasing the string material within the loop on a shorter ATA bow it slightly increases that angle, hopefully helping to preserve the integrity of the bowstring.

Does that make sense? I can try to explain what I'm saying differently or draw out a crude picture.

 

[Zac]

Very good explanation above. Mostly nocking points are used in order to decrease nock pinch. You can have some very frustrating lateral tuning issues with nock pinch. I'll include a video I have been circulating.

 

[Reburn]

Not questioning your wisdom but why does everyone recommend them and all the online DIY videos show/talk about putting them on? This is where my world derails in the bow world... In the gun world, while there are some nuances to the way you may do some "things", normally you gotta do the thing - its just how. For instance you HAVE to put a barrel nut on an AR15 to lock down the barrel/receiver. There is no "oh maybe you do or maybe you don't" - YOU DO...

In the bow world, when I ask what starts as a straightforward question - because every video I have watch on setting up a bow shows tying nock points - I start getting the variations of "of that's optional", "or that went out in the 80's" and the like....

Then there is the additional "ask any 10 people and get 20 answers" of the variations of the answers to the question... "sometimes I tie 1, sometimes I tie 2, sometimes I don't tie any"; "if your bow is short axle..."... Its like trying to build the human genome blind.

It has led to a lot of frustration.

Really trying to learn, so please don't take my response as a challenge. It just seems like you gotta be a shaman and talk to the gods to own a bow.

Alight bud. I'm going to type this as I'm getting caffinated which is probably a mistake so forgive typos. You seem to be getting wrapped up in the detail. Yes the details are important. There are so few concrete rules in archery it can lead to frustration. You need to pump your brakes. Just try some stuff. Not everything that works for me or billy goat will work for you. Not everything that works for billy goat works for me. There are so many different ways to skin this cat and none of them are wrong. Some things in archery yeild only minimal improvements but you add up 6 minimal things and now its made a major change. I use surgeon knots on my nocks. Zac uses constrictor knots. Im going to try some constrictor knots next time for the heck of it. Where your really gonna spin out is when you figure out this bow likes XYZ and then this similar bow from the same maker hates XYZ and loves ABC. Its all experimenting with archery to figure out what you AND the bow like. yes guns are easier. They have a formula. Take X well built gun, add nightforce or SWFA scope. Buy 4 different kinds of bullets go shoot find one you and the gun like and br happy. bows arent quite so simple. All I have to say is be cool man and enjoy the ride. When your nailing the bullseye at 60 with a broadhead and fieldpoint out of a bow you setup its an amazing feeling. Welcome to archery.

 

[sndmn11]

I tie a nock point above and a nock point below simply because it has allowed me to get the specific amount of nock play that I makes the most sense to me. I use a true constrictor knot (not a nail knot like the video above), a short loop, and a stiff Gibbs rope. The head of my release rotates, and I have found the Gibbs to be the most durable. In the past, outside of BCY23, I have seen loop knots slide together over time and pinch the nock.

 

[wildernessmaster]

Alight bud. I'm going to type this as I'm getting caffinated which is probably a mistake so forgive typos. You seem to be getting wrapped up in the detail. Yes the details are important. There are so few concrete rules in archery it can lead to frustration. You need to pump your brakes. Just try some stuff. Not everything that works for me or billy goat will work for you. Not everything that works for billy goat works for me. There are so many different ways to skin this cat and none of them are wrong. Some things in archery yeild only minimal improvements but you add up 6 minimal things and now its made a major change. I use surgeon knots on my nocks. Zac uses constrictor knots. Im going to try some constrictor knots next time for the heck of it. Where your really gonna spin out is when you figure out this bow likes XYZ and then this similar bow from the same maker hates XYZ and loves ABC. Its all experimenting with archery to figure out what you AND the bow like. yes guns are easier. They have a formula. Take X well built gun, add nightforce or SWFA scope. Buy 4 different kinds of bullets go shoot find one you and the gun like and br happy. bows arent quite so simple. All I have to say is be cool man and enjoy the ride. When your nailing the bullseye at 60 with a broadhead and fieldpoint out of a bow you setup its an amazing feeling. Welcome to archery.

Ha! I will be your bud... for now!

Look I am not spinning, but it does seem like:
1. Every response seems to be an authoritative "That is HOW IT MUST BE done" type response in the archery world.
2. Every aspect of the bow, and arrow is all - what works works. Which kind of means (1) is BS and really I should just do WTF I wanna do.

(2) said (in kindness of being clear, not anger) then how does anyone really know how to set up a bow or if a bow is set up properly.

Your analogy to the gun world is spot on and cogent to my consternation... Once I set my gun up right - and there are pretty clear rules on how to do that (not a lot of "what does your gun want")... I can nail my bullet/load down to a "T". That seems totally absent in the bow world.

For the bow world it is... no rules just how does your bow feel and shoot for setting up a bow... then you turn to the arrow and its "how does the arrow feel and shoot". Which basically can be summarized as total trial and error and there are no rules or true guidance.

But I totally get what you are saying. And thank you for letting that genie out of the bottle. I was applying the wrong set of thinking to archery.

I must be a shaman and not an engineer

 

[sndmn11]

(2) said (in kindness of being clear, not anger) then how does anyone really know how to set up a bow or if a bow is set up properly.

Simply if the arrow flys in a satisfactory manner for the owner to a satisfactory spot.