Cyanide use for predator control

[WCB]

Seems like an example of privatize the profits, socialize the risk. Gov subsidies ranchers with tax dollars and places devices that indiscriminately kill things.

like a snare?

 

[Reburn]

m44's are pretty safe for everything except canines.
our gov trapper used them a bunch. Killed piles of coyotes.

 

[ozyclint]

Meanwhile in NZ they spread 1080 (sodium monofluroacetate) poison by the ton from helicopters. Seen pellets sitting in streams and rivers on a hike out from a tahr hunt 2 years ago.

 

[RockAndSage]

Meanwhile in NZ they spread 1080 (sodium monofluroacetate) poison by the ton from helicopters. Seen pellets sitting in streams and rivers on a hike out from a tahr hunt 2 years ago.

What's it being used for?

 

[RockAndSage]

Do you have a website link or guidance on where one might look to find the information you posted?

I don't, but it should come up in a google search.

 

[Stache Attack]

like a snare?

I don’t mind snaring, but it is the saddest way to trap and it is very non discriminatory. Better have good sets not a fence line set. Cut an antelope out of one this winter. No one in town would claim the trap and no markings.

 

[wesfromky]

like a snare?

If it is placed using taxpayer funds to benefit a private company, then yes.

 

[RockAndSage]

If it is placed using taxpayer funds to benefit a private company, then yes.

Not trying to be a jerk with this question, but how is this any different from Colt or General Motors making profit from taxpayer dollars going through the Pentagon to have private work done?

 

[wesfromky]

Not trying to be a jerk with this question, but how is this any different from Colt or General Motors making profit from taxpayer dollars going through the Pentagon to have private work done?

Do two or ten or twenty wrongs make a right?

In the case of poisons and snares set with taxpayer funds, it is literally socializing the risk (and cost) for a questionable increase in the profits of a private company. If they can’t turn a profit without indiscriminate taxpayer funded lethal controls, not to mention all the other subsidies, maybe they shouldn’t be in business?

 

[RockAndSage]

Do two or ten or twenty wrongs make a right?

In the case of poisons and snares set with taxpayer funds, it is literally socializing the risk (and cost) for a questionable increase in the profits of a private company. If they can’t turn a profit without indiscriminate taxpayer funded lethal controls, not to mention all the other subsidies, maybe they shouldn’t be in business?

Fair enough. But do you think taxpayers would be spending less money for the same results, if a government org did it, with the same tools and time, when adding in all the bureaucracy, benefits, etc?

You do understand there are taxpayer benefits to the government privately contracting with companies that achieve better performance and efficiencies than the government itself can do, right?

 

[wesfromky]

Fair enough. But do you think taxpayers would be spending less money for the same results, if a government org did it, with the same tools and time, when adding in all the bureaucracy, benefits, etc?

You do understand there are taxpayer benefits to the government privately contracting with companies that achieve better performance and efficiencies than the government itself can do, right?

Sure, if you generalize, there are benefits for sure. But, in this specific case, how many dead pets or non target species are worth a fraction of a percent of profit for a private company? Same with the monetary cost - how much taxpayer money is spent to provide that fraction of a percent of profit?

To me, this is a super egregious example of the principle I posted first - we privatize profits while socializing the risk.

 

[RockAndSage]

Sure, if you generalize, there are benefits for sure. But, in this specific case, how many dead pets or non target species are worth a fraction of a percent of profit for a private company? Same with the monetary cost - how much taxpayer money is spent to provide that fraction of a percent of profit?

To me, this is a super egregious example of the principle I posted first - we privatize profits while socializing the risk.

You, eh, don't see how you're generalizing yourself on all this?

Or that you're assuming there'd be fewer dead pets or non-target species with a .gov employee doing it...or even providing data on how much happens at all?

I'm sincerely not trying to stir a political argument here man, I'm open minded, but when you do that while also saying, "we privatize profits while socializing the risk", that sounds more like marxist sloganeering than it does an argument for why government can do a better job on this.

And would any of your thoughts on this change, if the "private" company were publicly owned - where anyone could buy shares, including government employee pension funds?

 

[wesfromky]

You, eh, don't see how you're generalizing yourself on all this?

Or that you're assuming there'd be fewer dead pets or non-target species with a .gov employee doing it...or even providing data on how much happens at all?

I'm sincerely not trying to stir a political argument here man, I'm open minded, but when you do that while also saying, "we privatize profits while socializing the risk", that sounds more like marxist sloganeering than it does an argument for why government can do a better job on this.

And would any of your thoughts on this change, if the "private" company were publicly owned - where anyone could buy shares, including government employee pension funds?

You seem to be trying to make something fairly simple into something much more complex.

In this specific situation, taxpayers are paying for indiscriminate lethal cyanide traps for the purpose of increasing the profits of a private company. Full stop.

These traps have killed pets, non target wildlife, and injured people. So, it is pretty clear that the US Government is not only financially subsidizing private companies, but actively putting the public at risk while doing so.

As far as everything else, you do you and all that.

 

[M44]

Not all trappers that do this type of work are paid by the government. Some are hired full time by cattleman's associations or wool growers associations.

Sure, seems pretty easy to go in and kill a coyote, but it is an entirely different game when you are tasked to kill the coyote or the pair of coyotes. Also, you must have the experience to determine when the real culprits are dead.

You use what tools are needed to accomplish the job and the longer it takes the greater the loss to the producer. The particular coyote may not come to a rabbit or howl. May very well avoid a dirt hole or a well hung snare. Hell, some won't even pull a m44. Some of you speak of increasing profits. How about significant losses mean you won't even break even. Rural life is difficult and especially when a coyote is killing lambs for the fun of it

 

[KurtR]

Dead coyotes help deer and turkeys.

 

[ozyclint]

What's it being used for?

Possums, rats, stoats

 

[coyoteman]

The fact that it is potentially lethal for someone's pets is nonsense. It is an unnecessary risk.

I don't see a need or an upside that can't be mitigated with regular traps or thermals or aircraft .

How much do you actually know about coyotes? How many have you killed over let's say a years time?

Fact: A fella with a wolf tag or two in his pocket can be extremely lethal on pets..Who remembers the story of the two German Shepards?

 

[Blowdowner]

I get it if you live way out and coyotes are a problem. But the reason these traps exist is because no one wants to pay men with thermal scopes the amount of money they deserve. On private land the traps are for owners who don't actually live on their huge ranches.

 

[Reburn]

On private land the traps are for owners who don't actually live on their huge ranches.

What?
Seriously?

 

[cbat]

What is the benefit of these traps opposed to other management techniques?

The one landowner I know who poisoned coyotes on his property in a similar manner wound up killing so much shit unintentionally. Everything that fed on the poisoned carcasses died of poisoning/that continued till I assume it finally got diluted enough, etc.

There is no secondary kill with the M-44S like there is with ingested poisons. Only way to truly control coyotes.
Anywhere the are placed there is a lot of signs warning to stay out. If you can not read and enter with a dog the fault is on the dog owner.