CVA optima groups - good? Bad? Ok?

[satchamo]

So I just got into muzzleloading. I got a CVA optima and I’m trying to figure out how good or bad these groups are?

Here is what my load is-

100 grain 777 pellets
Winchester 209A primers

I’m swabbing down with a wet patch and 2 dry between every shot. I’m shooting off a Caldwell rest (not lead sled) on a bench so I have eliminated most of the “me” factor. All shots shown are 100 yards with no wind.

So far I’ve tried the following bullets:

250 grain SSTs (terrible groups)
250 grain PB Aerolites (terrible groups - 6+ inches)
295 grain PB copper

250 grain smack down carnivores

I haven’t tried more bullets yet but the carnivore and PB copper are doing OK.

So my question is are these groups about right or should I be expecting more from the gun? I have 0 access to blackhorn 209 otherwise I’d be happy to try.

Should I keep trying more bullets? Adjusting my powder load? Try different primers?

Any help is appreciated!!!

 

[Dexter Grayson]

Not good! I just picked up an optima this year and I ran the same powder charge and primer as you but used hornady mono flex ML projectiles and they were 1.5” group at 100 yards.

 

[GunsAreFun]

How wide are those rings? If they are 1”, it appears to be grouping 1-1.5”.

 

[rclouse79]

I had high hopes based on reviews. Maybe I just never found the right combination, but I ended up selling mine after not being able to get acceptable groups.

 

[satchamo]

Not good! I just picked up an optima this year and I ran the same powder charge and primer as you but used hornady mono flex ML projectiles and they were 1.5” group at 100 yards.

I’ll see if I can’t find some of those bullets. At 150 it got much worse. I’m feeling a bit annoyed considering how much I was told by everyone how accurate they are compared to slug guns (hunt IL).

I just ordered some muzzleloader specific primers that midway has in stock by some miracle as I’d read the regular 209s are too hot for 777. We’ll see?

 

[vonb]

Go to loose powder. 100 gr of loose 777 and a .452 250 gr XTP will produce this. That’s 4 shots at 100 yards. CVA Optima v2 nitride

 

[spur60]

My optima shoots significantly more accurate after firing about 40-50 shots through it....barrel break in can be needed.
First, if you're shooting open sights, make sure your sight mounting screws are tight. Mine were loose from the factory.

After cleaning your barrel, fire a primer before loading, see if that affects your accuracy at all. I had a few different loads using powerbelts and 777 pellets that got 1.5"-2" groups with open sights at 100 yards, and under 1.5" with the scope on. I'm shooting blackhorn with Barnes spitfire TMZ's now though.

 

[satchamo]

My optima shoots significantly more accurate after firing about 40-50 shots through it....barrel break in can be needed.
First, if you're shooting open sights, make sure your sight mounting screws are tight. Mine were loose from the factory.

After cleaning your barrel, fire a primer before loading, see if that affects your accuracy at all. I had a few different loads using powerbelts and 777 pellets that got 1.5"-2" groups with open sights at 100 yards, and under 1.5" with the scope on. I'm shooting blackhorn with Barnes spitfire TMZ's now though.

Yeah I’ve done that - 2 primers before each session/after it has been oiled. I’m running windex soaked pouches and 2 dry between each shot as well. Still not tickled with the performance. Picked up white hots to try today. I didn’t want to have to jump into measuring powder this late in the game plus blackhorn can’t be found. So I’ll make due with the best I can come up with for this season then maybe try snd hunt down blackhorn before next season and make the switch.

 

[CoHiCntry]

As mentioned, it's not great but not terrible depending on how far you're planning to shoot? If 100 yards is your max range then you're probably fine for now. Get it dialed in better after the season's over for next year? I think one thing that's sometimes overlooked is... some guy's are just better shots than others. Especially with open sites. You might just need more practice too?

 

[FrontierGander]

Looks like a 1" bullseye to me. Compare the bullet hole to the center bullseye.

 

[satchamo]

As mentioned, it's not great but not terrible depending on how far you're planning to shoot? If 100 yards is your max range then you're probably fine for now. Get it dialed in better after the season's over for next year? I think one thing that's sometimes overlooked is... some guy's are just better shots than others. Especially with open sites. You might just need more practice too?

It’s a scoped gun off of a rest with a sandbag on it. I’ve pretty much reduced as the human input as much as I can but I’m not gonna say it couldn’t still be me. Definitely will be practicing more once I get a load dialed.

 

[CoHiCntry]

It’s a scoped gun off of a rest with a sandbag on it. I’ve pretty much reduced as the human input as much as I can but I’m not gonna say it couldn’t still be me. Definitely will be practicing more once I get a load dialed.

Sorry, missed the part about the scope. When I hear "muzzleloader" I instantly think open sights. It's probably just that you haven't found the right load yet then. Good luck!

 

[WCB]

If you can get Fed 209A primers or the Federal Muzzle Loader primers which are CCI 209M primer it will probably help. They are hotter and definitely improved my groups when I shot 777 pellets (100gr). Groups went from 1.5-1.75 to clover leafs/1MOA.

I shoot Blackhorn now and would never go back to pellets.

 

[Harvey_NW]

Why are you swabbing between shots? Unless you're planning on doing that in the field I wouldn't judge group size with that process..

I typically shoot 5 shots before a full strip and cleaning. I used to never hunt with a clean bore but I tested it this year and found if I don't use bore butter it doesn't change POI on the first shot. Mine likes 150gr (3-50gr *in a Magnum*) Pyrodex pellets and 250gr SST. Musket cap primers and open sights, 100yd group.

 

[satchamo]

Why are you swabbing between shots? Unless you're planning on doing that in the field I wouldn't judge group size with that process..

I typically shoot 5 shots before a full strip and cleaning. I used to never hunt with a clean bore but I tested it this year and found if I don't use bore butter it doesn't change POI on the first shot. Mine likes 150gr (3-50gr *in a Magnum*) Pyrodex pellets and 250gr SST. Musket cap primers and open sights, 100yd group.
View attachment 344939

Just what I’d read to do with 777? Won’t act like I know any better haha. It gets hard as hell to load if I don’t from the crud ring though so I think it’s necessary.

In the field I only plan on taking 1 shot with a clean bore…

 

[satchamo]

If you can get Fed 209A primers or the Federal Muzzle Loader primers which are CCI 209M primer it will probably help. They are hotter and definitely improved my groups when I shot 777 pellets (100gr). Groups went from 1.5-1.75 to clover leafs/1MOA.

I shoot Blackhorn now and would never go back to pellets.

I got ahold of some Remington muzzleloader primers so gonna try them this weekend between bow hunting sits.

 

[Harvey_NW]

Just what I’d read to do with 777? Won’t act like I know any better haha. It gets hard as hell to load if I don’t from the crud ring though so I think it’s necessary.

In the field I only plan on taking 1 shot with a clean bore…

Hmm.. Never heard that. I agree you get more resistance, but my point was more directed at consistency if you're chasing tight groups.

That's usually my plan too but you'd be surprised how often follow up/second shot opportunities actually happen. Being quick with a speed loader can be the reason for a punched tag.

 

[satchamo]

Hmm.. Never heard that. I agree you get more resistance, but my point was more directed at consistency if you're chasing tight groups.

That's usually my plan too but you'd be surprised how often follow up/second shot opportunities actually happen. Being quick with a speed loader can be the reason for a punched tag.

Fair point - I’ll make it a point to try stringing some shots without cleaning to verify accuracy. Thanks for the tip!

 

[GMB54-120]

Triple7 and a 209 primer DOES create a horrible crud ring and anyone that tells you NOT to swab really has no business giving advice on using it. The hotter the primer the worse it gets too.

You did exactly what you should with Triple7 or you would be risking not seating the projectile all the way down on the powder or pellets. Anyone that has actually used Triple7 for years knows this to be 100% true. In some cases you may be able to load twice but its very common to need to swab.

Loose Triple7 will give you far more flexibility with your load. Its just a fact that some rifles wont like a 2 or 3 pellet load.

You mentioned the SSTs, well in all likely hood the sabot that comes with SSTs is probably too loose for a Optima bore. They are one of the smallest sabots made. Its not big deal to use just the SST bullet with a Harvester EZ Load sabot. You want the smooth ones labeled FOR UPTO 300gr BULLETS. That sabot is very popular with CVA owners. Sometimes the Crushrib version is better if the bore is tighter.

 

[Harvey_NW]

Triple7 and a 209 primer DOES create a horrible crud ring and anyone that tells you NOT to swab really has no business giving advice on using it. The hotter the primer the worse it gets too.

I shot 777 for years before someone informed me that it's made for 209 primer ignition, it was less dirty than Pyrodex. I would argue that anyone who says you need to swab in between shots has no business advising someone with the intent to hunt, because in a scenario with a not so perfect initial shot you'd be wasting time fiddling with a patch instead of reloading and making a follow up shot.

I know tons of muzzleloader hunters that have a multitude of brands and use Pyrodex, Blackhorn, 777, no 11, musket cap, 209, etc. Not a single one swabs between shots.