Custom turret question

[eric1115]

Hunting of course, or get 2 turrets made. Just dial while at the range, use the info for your average hunting conditions for a custom turret. I have several turrets for different bullets, that's a way bigger factor than the temp swings from the middle of course. BUT if you have one made at 45 degrees and 6k ft of elevation guess what? The difference is better than you can shoot the gun anyway at 600. The goal is to have a turret made that is the in the center, no one has a turret made for 10K elevation and -20, well maybe someone does if hunting 150k sheep in Mongolia, but not me. If you are going to hunt extreme differences from your turret, then dial to what you need. Again a custom turret does NOT change a thing, it's still clicks. A dope Card is a custom turret, but on paper instead of plastic. I have used the same turret all over the US, Europe, Africa, shoot well over 100 animals with the same turret, never once missed an animal under 750 yards that I was 100% steady on. I am not talking wind, that of course is the big factor. I would not take a 500 yard plus shot in heavy wind without some data. I would bet there are as many errors made using a Applied Ballistics inputting wrong data as a custom turret. Not to mention we can use 5 different apps, input the exact same info and literally get .5 to 1 moa difference in the information returned to us at extreme distances. Best info is real world data, regardless if it's etched on plastic or on a cell phone screen.

So, I'll be the first to say you've probably got more long range kills in more varied environments than I do, by quite a bit.

I'll also say that I'm not claiming that someone who uses a yardage turret is going to have a bunch of misses that you can point to and blame the turret. I'm saying that they introduce a systematic error that moves the entire cone of fire up or down on the target, which will push more of the marginal shots off the target and lower your hit rate.

The problem is that shifting your entire group down by two inches means that some of them likely miss the target off the side, and you have some shots that would be marginal hits turn into misses. Might not show up shooting 3 or 5 shots, but an aggregate of 100 shots would absolutely show a lower hit rate. Your system and shooter error is compounded when you introduce a systematic error (like a poorly zeroed rifle or a wrong muzzle velocity or any of those sorts of things we should also try to minimize or eliminate) that shifts the center of your group away from point of aim.

Rangefinders with onboard solvers are just as fast as distance and custom turret (solution displayed in the viewfinder in MOA or mils), and allow easy corrections for environmental conditions.

I agree that inputting exact elevation, temp, and distance manually into a phone app when it's time to shoot an animal is a stupid way to do it. Before I had a rangefinder with ballistic solver, I did drop charts for several different general environmental conditions that I'd commonly encounter. Tape to the stock, (or inside scope cap) and good to go.

 

[eric1115]

I'll also say I appreciate the conversation.

I do think that yardage turrets do have a place; if a guy had a good quality rangefinder already and wanted to set up a rifle for hunting at 400 yd and in and doesn't like to tinker with different bullets, different loads, etc, I think a yardage turret can be a viable solution for something like that. I personally still like a drop chart but can understand why someone else might prefer a yardage dial.

I think 5 years ago or for sure 10 years ago, when range finders with ballistic calculators were less common/affordable, custom turrets did make more sense for fast workflow at medium ranges. I just think that advantage is completely gone now with the rangefinder options that are available but all of the downsides are still present.

I had a couple friends who in those in between times went from a rangefinder and custom turret to attempting to run every shot through a ballistic calculator on their phone, and it did not work well for them.

 

[SDHNTR]

5" of error is already there at 700 yards, it's called human error, and I would NEVER have 5" of intentional error because my turret would never be that far off, that's an extreme exaggeration. You can't shoot 5 inch groups 100% of the time at 700 yards even if you know the drop.

I don’t want any known error if I can help it. If it’s a variable I can control with minimal effort, I will.

 

[mighteywhitehunter]

Dont make it more complicated than it needs to be. Keep you shots at reasonable ranges, Get a turret with the average of your muzzle velocity, expected conditions and elevation. Run a ballistic calculator on your phone as a secondary check to confirm if time is given.

 

[Formidilosus]

That's not true I just told you what the difference was. 30 degress is 3/4 of an inch at 700 yards. If you have a blistic calculator you can look it up and verify it.

I'm just saying for normal hunting condition I think a custom turret works just fine. My 7mm-08 has hit animals out well past 700 yards in the US in Winter and Impala in Africa in 80s temp in Africa. I can spin it to 500 and drop a Baboon out of a tree 100% of the time. Again, I showed the math, what's is the difference in inches at say 500 yards with a 30-40 degrees temp change and a 3k elevation increase on a 175 grn 7mm, it's about 1 inch, or so.

You keep dropping the range- first 700 yards, now 500 yards…

However, a 175gr ELD-X at 2,600fps MV (7-08) is about 2.5 inches per 3k FT DA change. Not one inch. You are changing elevation and temp at the same time which is why it looks like it’s cancelling itself out, however you are just as likely to get a 60° day at 9,000ft in Colorado as you are a 20° during elk season. Density Altitude is a much clearer way to express environmental data, and combines those things.

You are stating they are missing because their calculations are off? Impossible actually, literally impossible. Human error for the average hunter is 5 inches at 500 yards.

Where are you getting that the average hunter is shooting 5 inch groups at 500 yards? Put a 5 inch target up at 500 yards at a PRS match and watch how many competitive shooters shooting comp rifles miss it. Then, try “average” hunters shooting hunting rifles trying to hit a 5” target at 500 yards….

I have seen thousands of shooters shoot in the field over the past two decades- 2 MOA field shooting is really good, and about what the top shooters do from field positions. That’s already a 10” group at 500 yards. If you are shooting at an animal with a 10” vital area (WT and Mule deer), and your group shifts 2.5 inches low or high due to differing environment that you didn’t account for- you absolutely are missing shots off that target.

If their turret is bad to 500 then they put bad data in when having the turret made. Gunwerks, Branded Rock, Best of the West, many shotting schools all have excellent luck with a custom turrets.

Gunwerks has a rangefinder that corrects the yardage readout to equivalent range- if you’re going to use a BDC turret, their system is by far the best. The other companies advertise to the exact people that in no way should be shooting at any distance where you need to account for range. And you can say “excellent” results, but I and many others don’t generally see it from the people that own those systems.

Also, how is inputting several variables into an app and then counting clicks, faster than just turning the turret?

Who waits until the moment they need to shoot to correct the ambient environmental data and drop chart? And who “counts clicks”?

A dope chart is basically a custom turret on paper, same thing.

Yes it is- if you don’t change it for differing conductions.

Using DA, and mils any one can learn the elevation to at least 600 yards very easily and can you your elevation in mils before you could drop in to prone- and that’s not even using RF’s that spot out the info.

Tthis-




Is the lock screen on my phone. I wake up, check DA, change it in the app if needed (or switch cards if doing that), screen shot and make it my Lock Screen. I do not have to input anything in an app for a shot. Inside of 600y- the elevation is the range in decimals minus 2. 535 yards is 3.3 mils. 480y is 2.8, 312y is 1.1mils, etc. Past 600, push a button on the phone and the chart is there.

The difference is not significant enough to cause the miss. 1K yards, 1,500 yards different story. There is also nothing to "learn" about dialing, it's just input a few variables and you are there. Yes real world data, velocity from the barrel, BC, etc all have to be correct, but they have to be correct on a custom turret as well.

Given the information presented would you say the OP has any idea about getting the MV, BC, Temp, pressure and altitude to be correct in his data for a custom turret?

Do you actually believe that if you grabbed 100 random people with Leupold CDS scopes that said they were good to 600, that the majority not only actually have real shot data to get that turret, but also would hit a 10” target at 500 or 600 yards consistently in the field?

The goal is to have a turret made that is the in the center, no one has a turret made for 10K elevation and -20, well maybe someone does if hunting 150k sheep in Mongolia, but not me.

Or elk or deer hunting late season in Colorado, Idaho, Montana, Whyoming, etc etc. Where we routinely hunt elk is between 6,500 and 9,000ft elevation, and it has ranged on elk kills between 65° and -26°.


I am not saying that someone or you can’t or haven’t used a BDC with good results- I did too for over a decade. Now? No, there are so many better options. 400 yards or even 500 yards someone can get away with a BDC across the west. With how many people should even be attending shots past MPBR, that would be fine. However, a set BDC is not the way for beyond 450’ish for someone looking for “simple” or “easy”. Actually any distance isn’t for someone looking for “easy”.

 

[Happy Antelope]

You keep dropping the range- first 700 yards, now 500 yards…

However, a 175gr ELD-X at 2,600fps MV (7-08) is about 2.5 inches per 3k FT DA change. Not one inch. You are changing elevation and temp at the same time which is why it looks like it’s cancelling itself out, however you are just as likely to get a 60° day at 9,000ft in Colorado as you are a 20° during elk season. Density Altitude is a much clearer way to express environmental data, and combines those things.





Where are you getting that the average hunter is shooting 5 inch groups at 500 yards? Put a 5 inch target up at 500 yards at a PRS match and watch how many competitive shooters shooting comp rifles miss it. Then, try “average” hunters shooting hunting rifles trying to hit a 5” target at 500 yards….

I have seen thousands of shooters shoot in the field over the past two decades- 2 MOA field shooting is really good, and about what the top shooters do from field positions. That’s already a 10” group at 500 yards. If you are shooting at an animal with a 10” vital area (WT and Mule deer), and your group shifts 2.5 inches low or high due to differing environment that you didn’t account for- you absolutely are missing shots off that target.






Gunwerks has a rangefinder that corrects the yardage readout to equivalent range- if you’re going to use a BDC turret, their system is by far the best. The other companies advertise to the exact people that in no way should be shooting at any distance where you need to account for range. And you can say “excellent” results, but I and many others don’t generally see it from the people that own those systems.





Who waits until the moment they need to shoot to correct the ambient environmental data and drop chart? And who “counts clicks”?




Yes it is- if you don’t change it for differing conductions.

Using DA, and mils any one can learn the elevation to at least 600 yards very easily and can you your elevation in mils before you could drop in to prone- and that’s not even using RF’s that spot out the info.

Tthis-

View attachment 554209


Is the lock screen on my phone. I wake up, check DA, change it in the app if needed (or switch cards if doing that), screen shot and make it my Lock Screen. I do not have to input anything in an app for a shot. Inside of 600y- the elevation is the range in decimals minus 2. 535 yards is 3.3 mils. 480y is 2.8, 312y is 1.1mils, etc. Past 600, push a button on the phone and the chart is there.






Given the information presented would you say the OP has any idea about getting the MV, BC, Temp, pressure and altitude to be correct in his data for a custom turret?

Do you actually believe that if you grabbed 100 random people with Leupold CDS scopes that said they were good to 600, that the majority not only actually have real shot data to get that turret, but also would hit a 10” target at 500 or 600 yards consistently in the field?




Or elk or deer hunting late season in Colorado, Idaho, Montana, Whyoming, etc etc. Where we routinely hunt elk is between 6,500 and 9,000ft elevation, and it has ranged on elk kills between 65° and -26°.


I am not saying that someone or you can’t or haven’t used a BDC with good results- I did too for over a decade. Now? No, there are so many better options. 400 yards or even 500 yards someone can get away with a BDC across the west. With how many people should even be attending shots past MPBR, that would be fine. However, a set BDC is not the way for beyond 450’ish for someone looking for “simple” or “easy”. Actually any distance isn’t for someone looking for “easy”.

Are we talking about hunting still? If you have to put that much effort into making a decent shot to shoot a deer I'm not quite sure what to say. Yes extremes one might need to click a few more or a few less, good thing is you can.

 

[Happy Antelope]

You keep dropping the range- first 700 yards, now 500 yards…

However, a 175gr ELD-X at 2,600fps MV (7-08) is about 2.5 inches per 3k FT DA change. Not one inch. You are changing elevation and temp at the same time which is why it looks like it’s cancelling itself out, however you are just as likely to get a 60° day at 9,000ft in Colorado as you are a 20° during elk season. Density Altitude is a much clearer way to express environmental data, and combines those things.





Where are you getting that the average hunter is shooting 5 inch groups at 500 yards? Put a 5 inch target up at 500 yards at a PRS match and watch how many competitive shooters shooting comp rifles miss it. Then, try “average” hunters shooting hunting rifles trying to hit a 5” target at 500 yards….

I have seen thousands of shooters shoot in the field over the past two decades- 2 MOA field shooting is really good, and about what the top shooters do from field positions. That’s already a 10” group at 500 yards. If you are shooting at an animal with a 10” vital area (WT and Mule deer), and your group shifts 2.5 inches low or high due to differing environment that you didn’t account for- you absolutely are missing shots off that target.






Gunwerks has a rangefinder that corrects the yardage readout to equivalent range- if you’re going to use a BDC turret, their system is by far the best. The other companies advertise to the exact people that in no way should be shooting at any distance where you need to account for range. And you can say “excellent” results, but I and many others don’t generally see it from the people that own those systems.





Who waits until the moment they need to shoot to correct the ambient environmental data and drop chart? And who “counts clicks”?




Yes it is- if you don’t change it for differing conductions.

Using DA, and mils any one can learn the elevation to at least 600 yards very easily and can you your elevation in mils before you could drop in to prone- and that’s not even using RF’s that spot out the info.

Tthis-

View attachment 554209


Is the lock screen on my phone. I wake up, check DA, change it in the app if needed (or switch cards if doing that), screen shot and make it my Lock Screen. I do not have to input anything in an app for a shot. Inside of 600y- the elevation is the range in decimals minus 2. 535 yards is 3.3 mils. 480y is 2.8, 312y is 1.1mils, etc. Past 600, push a button on the phone and the chart is there.






Given the information presented would you say the OP has any idea about getting the MV, BC, Temp, pressure and altitude to be correct in his data for a custom turret?

Do you actually believe that if you grabbed 100 random people with Leupold CDS scopes that said they were good to 600, that the majority not only actually have real shot data to get that turret, but also would hit a 10” target at 500 or 600 yards consistently in the field?




Or elk or deer hunting late season in Colorado, Idaho, Montana, Whyoming, etc etc. Where we routinely hunt elk is between 6,500 and 9,000ft elevation, and it has ranged on elk kills between 65° and -26°.


I am not saying that someone or you can’t or haven’t used a BDC with good results- I did too for over a decade. Now? No, there are so many better options. 400 yards or even 500 yards someone can get away with a BDC across the west. With how many people should even be attending shots past MPBR, that would be fine. However, a set BDC is not the way for beyond 450’ish for someone looking for “simple” or “easy”. Actually any distance isn’t for someone looking for “easy”.

Are we talking about hunting still? If you have to put that much effort into making a decent shot to shoot a deer I'm not quite sure what to say. It's really not that hard. I am not questioning you are very good at this, but waaaay to much. A custom turret works just fine for hunting out to 700 yards or so. I almost guarantee I have shot a lot more animals than you, maybe hundreds, even though you likely have tens of thousands more rounds than me through a rifle. For normal hunting for an average joe, a custom turret is fine.

 

[Happy Antelope]

Lots of great opinions and info I think, imagine both camps have killed pleanty of animals, where are the open sight guys?

 

[Ucsdryder]

@Happy Antelope and @Formidilosus I think you’re probably both right. There’s a cut off where the custom turret is “good enough”. Dialing is always more accurate and once learned, not much harder, but it’s always slightly harder than range, dial to yardage and shoot. If you want to shoot to 500 yards and regularly hunt the same spot, then a custom turret is probably fine. If you hunt multiple terrains and want to improve your long range shooting, a custom turret is a turd in the punch bowl.

 

[eric1115]

Are we talking about hunting still? If you have to put that much effort into making a decent shot to shoot a deer I'm not quite sure what to say. It's really not that hard. I am not questioning you are very good at this, but waaaay to much. A custom turret works just fine for hunting out to 700 yards or so. I almost guarantee I have shot a lot more animals than you, maybe hundreds, even though you likely have tens of thousands more rounds than me through a rifle. For normal hunting for an average joe, a custom turret is fine.

Form is a big boy who can make his own arguments, but I'd just observe you're making both thinly veiled insults and also assertions with little hard data to back it up. What do you think is a realistic first round group size for a hunter who's enthusiastic about shooting? Call it 75th percentile, better than ¾ of the guys in the mountains? 10 rounds, one round per day for ten days on one target at 700 yards?

Is it 10.5"? 1.5 MOA? I'd call that mildly optimistic though not crazy if you're in pretty consistent wind, shooting at the same place every morning. Put the target in a new location every day, shoot at different times from different directions and have to get a new range every time and I'd be shocked if more that 1% of mountain hunters who care about shooting go 10/10 on a 10" plate. So group size alone is right on the edge of deer vitals. Introduce even 2" of error (maybe 4?) and that hit rate goes way down even for the 1%.

Unless you believe the average "good shooter" is a good bit better than 1.5 MOA at distance, a yardage turret is hardly an "just not that hard" solution for shooting deer at 700 yards. Please help me understand how my math is wrong if you see it differently.

 

[Happy Antelope]

Form is a big boy who can make his own arguments, but I'd just observe you're making both thinly veiled insults and also assertions with little hard data to back it up. What do you think is a realistic first round group size for a hunter who's enthusiastic about shooting? Call it 75th percentile, better than ¾ of the guys in the mountains? 10 rounds, one round per day for ten days on one target at 700 yards?

Is it 10.5"? 1.5 MOA? I'd call that mildly optimistic though not crazy if you're in pretty consistent wind, shooting at the same place every morning. Put the target in a new location every day, shoot at different times from different directions and have to get a new range every time and I'd be shocked if more that 1% of mountain hunters who care about shooting go 10/10 on a 10" plate. So group size alone is right on the edge of deer vitals. Introduce even 2" of error (maybe 4?) and that hit rate goes way down even for the 1%.

Unless you believe the average "good shooter" is a good bit better than 1.5 MOA at distance, a yardage turret is hardly an "just not that hard" solution for shooting deer at 700 yards. Please help me understand how my math is wrong if you see it differently.

Very extreme differences and yeah that would be 10" at 700 yards. Pretty simple to figure out, dial to 7 and another 6 clicks.

 

[eric1115]

Where do you come up with 1.5 MOA with a 30 degree temp change at 700 yards, I get 1.5 inches on AB? In order to get a 1.5 MOA change at 700 it have to raise the temperature about 400ﾟ

I was talking about realistic group size and 700ish yards where you have a new wind call and new range for each shot. Everyone thinks they are sub MOA shooters because they can print a ¾" three or five shot group at 100 yards, but I don't think that is a realistic expectation at distance. Trying to put together the full picture one building block at a time for what it takes to reliably make first round vital zone impacts at 700 yards.

My apologies if that wasn't clear!

 

[OverInfinite]

I think although this conversation snowballed a bit. For the OP, he was asking about setting up a custom turret, not IF he should use a custom turret. I think 90%+ of you guys commenting that he shouldn't use a custom turret wanted the best for the OP. But if the guy has his own setup and wants to try it out for himself, why not answer the question? and then advise why not. It took a couple us of pushing back to get more than "don't do it"... which is about as useful as a rock in a mine pit. There is alot of valuable information in here, but here is my advise
Op: use a ballistic program for your favorite bullet in your cartridge with your gun (even if it's not a heavy for caliber bullet) and you play with the numbers. Adjust elevation, wind, temperature, angle, humidity, etc... and you decide if difference is worrisome or if it good enough for your effective range.

 

[J Batt]

View attachment 554209


Is the lock screen on my phone. I wake up, check DA,

Hey Form, awesome idea to have as your lockscreen.
I am curious what ballistic app and tool for finding DA you are using.
I've been using Applied Ballistics and entering Altitude, Barometric pressure, and temp seperately.
Not to sound like a "shortcutter", But by what you said it made me wonder if theres a more streamline setting for climate readings and inputs.

 

[Happy Antelope]

I was talking about realistic group size and 700ish yards where you have a new wind call and new range for each shot. Everyone thinks they are sub MOA shooters because they can print a ¾" three or five shot group at 100 yards, but I don't think that is a realistic expectation at distance. Trying to put together the full picture one building block at a time for what it takes to reliably make first round vital zone impacts at 700 yards.

My apologies if that wasn't clear!

Ya wind is the real game, I assume 10 mph and dial for it, if it's crazy windy I wouldn't take a shot that far.

 

[rratzlaff1490]

So yeah….custom turrets!

 

[Formidilosus]

Hey Form, awesome idea to have as your lockscreen.
I am curious what ballistic app and tool for finding DA you are using.
I've been using Applied Ballistics and entering Altitude, Barometric pressure, and temp seperately.
Not to sound like a "shortcutter", But by what you said it made me wonder if theres a more streamline setting for climate readings and inputs.

DA is the way to go for a number of reasons, not the least of which is you don’t need electronics to get it. I use a Kestrel or Brunton weather meter to get it, however this-



And a thermometer (or decent guess at the temp) will get you within a couple hundred foot DA, which is more than sufficient for shooting. Just go into AB and set it for Density Altitude.

 

[bpeay4]

Didn't realize people were so against custom turrets and would rather plug a bunch of numbers into their ballistic app before taking the shot.

For ethical ranges a custom dial is fine. For long range hunters not so much

 

[ResearchinStuff]

Didn't realize people were so against custom turrets and would rather plug a bunch of numbers into their ballistic app before taking the shot.

For ethical ranges a custom dial is fine. For long range hunters not so much

This entire conversation is in the long range forum.

 

[Lawnboi]

Didn't realize people were so against custom turrets and would rather plug a bunch of numbers into their ballistic app before taking the shot.

For ethical ranges a custom dial is fine. For long range hunters not so much

I make a chart, with the data for the area I’m going to be in, and understand what happens when you go up or down in DA.

I’ll skip it for ethical ranges as well. I prefer to be precise.

Anyone who has documented velocity throughout the life of a barrel would understand why custom turrets are a gimmick. Even to have a barrels worth of components on hand for the life of it, I still wouldn’t waste my time or money in a custom t turret. It’s going to be off eventually.

That’s not to mention changes in your ammunition just in different environments.