Custom turret question

[Rob5589]

Glad I asked. Lol

Are you near Sacramento'ish by chance? If so, head out to Sac Valley shooting center when one of the long range clubs are out there. You can go all the way to 1000 on paper, 550 on steel. Best way to know is shooting. The 1k range can have some nasty winds, some of the toughest calls according to guys that shoot all over.

 

[Rob5589]

Really not trying to poke the bear just want to clarify. I gave wildly different elevation and temp swings. I am aware that those conditions you posted are very capable. Especially 3k ft @ 20 deg in the plains and central us.
Let's take your example: but instead of setting a turret up at either of those extremes extrapolate the most common elevation and turrets that will be found on a hunt with that gun.
So instead of 20 deg vs 100.. how about 50-60deg? And instead of 3kft vs 10kft.. how about 6-7,000ft. Can we assume then the most you would be off is 0.6 MOA? ROUGHLY.. I don't have your load data, I am just extrapolating from your given data.
0.6 is roughly 3-4" at 600 yards.. not dead on. But also not widely off enough to make me super nervous.
I don't agree that easy buttons are the reason people are in the woods now. I think that it has more to do with availability of information, a more welcoming group of hunters and social media pushing the cool factor of it. (For good and bad) Hunting has definitely gotten easier. But it has always been getting easier since the first stab with a sharp rock.

That is the problem that I see, IMO. You're already 3-4" off; minus a poor wind call, pushing a shot, incorrect distance, etc. The assumption is that the bullet will go exactly where aimed, minus 3-4". Why not be more exact?

 

[eric1115]

Really not trying to poke the bear just want to clarify. I gave wildly different elevation and temp swings. I am aware that those conditions you posted are very capable. Especially 3k ft @ 20 deg in the plains and central us.
Let's take your example: but instead of setting a turret up at either of those extremes extrapolate the most common elevation and turrets that will be found on a hunt with that gun.
So instead of 20 deg vs 100.. how about 50-60deg? And instead of 3kft vs 10kft.. how about 6-7,000ft. Can we assume then the most you would be off is 0.6 MOA? ROUGHLY.. I don't have your load data, I am just extrapolating from your given data.
0.6 is roughly 3-4" at 600 yards.. not dead on. But also not widely off enough to make me super nervous.
I don't agree that easy buttons are the reason people are in the woods now. I think that it has more to do with availability of information, a more welcoming group of hunters and social media pushing the cool factor of it. (For good and bad) Hunting has definitely gotten easier. But it has always been getting easier since the first stab with a sharp rock.

I think this is an aspect of what I'm trying to express... And I don't feel like a poked bear at all. I and countless others have had that mindset at various points in the journey towards long range

What's your realistic cone of fire in field conditions? A very high first round hit rate on a 6" plate at 600 yards is extremely difficult. I would suggest that most guys who consider themselves "shooters" would struggle with very high percentage first round hits on a 12" plate. Let's call 10" the realistic (IMO still very optimistic) number. No particular reason, CBC is completely unrelated . POA ±5" group size, ± 4" environmental conditions, ± 1" for ranging error, means your high confidence first round hit target has grown to 20".

A 4" error on top of all the other errors is huge, and by the time we get all the other stuff figured out to where a 4" error doesn't push us out of the vitals, the 4" is very easy to compensate for. More than that, by that time the yardage dial doesn't eliminate any steps that actually impede the shot process anymore and actually gets in the way of compensating for environmental conditions.

 

[Happy Antelope]

I’ll save you… You don’t use a custom turret. Learn moa or mils.

And what on earth are you shooting to get that velocity out of a .300prc? Must be way light. In which case, you likely aren’t utilizing the true value of that cartridge.

You can do both, your MOA/MIL does not change if you use a custom Turret, it's still clicks, just a lot faster for the know range. If you have extreme temperature or altitude the differ from your turret, simple use a calculator and still click. Pretty much all of the best long range rifle makers in the world all use custom turrets, we have utilized with excellent results for years. Clicks are clicks regardless of what the number on the side of the turret is.

 

[Hoggetter]

I set up a 300prc non-lead Cali rife for a hunter using Barnes 208 LRX bullets and Retumbo it will destroy any thing you hit from pigs/deer to elk/moose. To very accurate and hard hitting set up.
But as for you question, learn to shoot MOA and get a range finder with a ballistic program. Either way you go you still use to feet per second at the Muzzle .

 

[wind gypsy]

My rub on ballistic turrets is the following:
- There are so many range finders out there with sufficient ballistic computers on board that automatically update for some atmospherics and spit out your elevation solution at a minimum after ranging. That is more accurate in a wider variety of atmospheric conditions and the solution is easily updated for changes in ammo and velocity that change over the life of a barrel, with different ammo lots, and with temperature. That is the much better "range, dial, shoot" solution if that is the goal.
- They are marketed and bought as a short cut that makes people believing something is simpler than it is
- The majority of people who want custom turrets are ignorant of the ballistic turret's limitations and their own limitations.

All that said, if someone is just going to shoot to 350-400 yards and wants a "range, dial, shoot" solution and doesn't want to buy a range finder with ballistic calc on board, a custom dial could serve them well.

You can do both, your MOA/MIL does not change if you use a custom Turret, it's still clicks, just a lot faster for the know range. If you have extreme temperature or altitude the differ from your turret, simple use a calculator and still click. Pretty much all of the best long range rifle makers in the world all use custom turrets, we have utilized with excellent results for years. Clicks are clicks regardless of what the number on the side of the turret is.

The best ones at selling/marketing to people who are trying to buy shortcuts to competency maybe.

 

[SDHNTR]

I set up a 300prc non-lead Cali rife for a hunter using Barnes 208 LRX bullets and Retumbo it will destroy any thing you hit from pigs/deer to elk/moose. To very accurate and hard hitting set up.
But as for you question, learn to shoot MOA and get a range finder with a ballistic program. Either way you go you still use to feet per second at the Muzzle .

This is a much better option than your 168 TTSX for a .300 prc. There is also a .308 cal 190 LRX if you just gotta have some speed, but still better BC than your 168.

 

[Justin Crossley]

You can do both, your MOA/MIL does not change if you use a custom Turret, it's still clicks, just a lot faster for the know range. If you have extreme temperature or altitude the differ from your turret, simple use a calculator and still click. Pretty much all of the best long range rifle makers in the world all use custom turrets, we have utilized with excellent results for years. Clicks are clicks regardless of what the number on the side of the turret is.

A lot of rifle builders recommend them because a lot of clients don't know what they're doing. No proficient shooter is out in the field counting clicks on their scope.

Anyone who is shooting beyond a few hundred yards in varying conditions really needs to own a Kestrel and a ballistic solver.

 

[Happy Antelope]

A lot of rifle builders recommend them because a lot of clients don't know what they're doing. No proficient shooter is out in the field counting clicks on their scope.

Anyone who is shooting beyond a few hundred yards in varying conditions really needs to own a Kestrel and a ballistic solver.

The difference of a 100ﾟ temperature and 8k of elevation difference at 700 yds on say a 28 nosler is less than 5 inches, better than most average hunters on here can shoot with a standard hunting rifle anyway. No one is also going to anywhere near those extremes in a hunting normal scenario either. I still submit that for 99% of hunting scenarios it's perfectly fine. Used the custom turret on several different continents, 700 yd plus never had an issue or a miss on an animal. PRS, 1k yds plus I agree. Regular hunting especially in your known hunting... area works awesome. Wind is a different issue of course.

 

[SDHNTR]

The difference of a 100ﾟ temperature and 8k of elevation difference at 700 yds on say a 28 nosler is less than 5 inches, better than most average hunters on here can shoot with a standard hunting rifle anyway. No one is also going to anywhere near those extremes in a hunting normal scenario either. I still submit that for 99% of hunting scenarios it's perfectly fine. Used the custom turret on several different continents, 700 yd plus never had an issue or a miss on an animal. PRS, 1k yds plus I agree. Regular hunting especially in your known hunting... area works awesome. Wind is a different issue of course.

Why on earth would someone intentionally program 5” worth of potential error into their system? Or any error? What’s the upside? Versus a system with no error and no downside?

 

[Formidilosus]

The difference of a 100ﾟ temperature and 8k of elevation difference at 700 yds on say a 28 nosler is less than 5 inches, better than most average hunters on here can shoot with a standard hunting rifle anyway.

Shifting POI 5” drops hit rates substantially. Guns don’t shoot to a point, they shoot in a cone- shifting your cone a few inches even with a perfect center hood dramatically increases missed.

Used the custom turret on several different continents, 700 yd plus never had an issue or a miss on an animal. PRS, 1k yds plus I agree.

How is something “good” for hunting to hit 8-12” targets, but for shooting a game to hit 8-12” targets it isn’t?

 

[Happy Antelope]

Shifting POI 5” drops hit rates substantially. Guns don’t shoot to a point, they shoot in a cone- shifting your cone a few inches even with a perfect center hood dramatically increases missed.




How is something “good” for hunting to hit 8-12” targets, but for shooting a game to hit 8-12” targets it isn’t?

Umm 1 MOA at 700 yards is 7 inches as it is, the temp and altitude are less of a factor than simple human ability. Plus I said that's the assuming you are hunting in weather 100 degrees higher in temp and 8K higher in elevation to make an extreme exaggeration. The difference between say 30-40 degrees in temp and a few thousands ft of elevation at 700 yards is maybe a 3/4 of an inch total at that 700 yards in your ballistic calculations not 8-12 inches as you stated. Come on, not a sole on here or in the world can shoot good enough to notice 3/4 of an inch at 700 yards with a hunting rifle. If your turret is set for -20 and 12K elevation and you move to sea level at 110 degrees in Namibia then yes your custom turret won't work well. If you hunt fall Elk in Utah you are fine, the difference is less than the thickness of your crosshair by a mile, especially if using a FFP scope. For hunting, custom turrets are also quicker. regardless if it's a turret or a calculator it's good info in good info out.

 

[wind gypsy]

If your turret is set for -20 and 12K elevation and you move to sea level at 110 degrees in Namibia then yes your custom turret won't work well. If you hunt fall Elk in Utah you are fine, the difference is less than the thickness of your crosshair by a mile, especially if using a FFP scope. For hunting, custom turrets are also quicker. regardless if it's a turret or a calculator it's good info in good info out.

You're the second person (of two) supporting custom turrets that gave an example indicating you don't understand how temperature impacts ballistics.

 

[Happy Antelope]

You're the second person (of two) supporting custom turrets that gave an example indicating you don't understand how temperature impacts ballistics.

You're the second person (of two) supporting custom turrets that gave an example indicating you don't understand how temperature impacts ballistics.

That's not true I just told you what the difference was. 30 degrees temp difference either way is about 3/4 to 1 inch at 700 yards, at 500 it's .5 of an inch, or 1/10 of MOA. Better than Anyone in the planet can shoot. If you have a calculator you can look it up and verify it. Bottom line your human wrror is a bigger factor than any small temperature change.

 

[Formidilosus]

That's not true I just told you what the difference was. 30 degrees temp difference either way is about 3/4 to 1 inch at 700 yards, at 500 it's .5 of an inch, or 1/10 of MOA. Better than Anyone in the planet can shoot.

I used the example you gave- 5 inches, and pointed out that is absolutely does matter.

If you have a calculator you can look it up and verify it. Bottom line your human wrror is a bigger factor than any small temperature change.

You keep saying temperature as if that is the defining factor. This is the long range hunting section in a forum dedicated to western US hunting- temp is just one factor. I have sat on the exact same ridge elk hunting and in 24 hours had the density altitude (DA) change over 3,500ft- 3/4” is not what the difference is in different environments. Using a .550 G1 BC bullet at 3000’ish FPS MV, every 5k change in DA is right at 6 inches at 700 yards. That matters. In the exact same state two days apart I have killed animals at 8,700ft DA and 1,100ft DA past 600 yards. That change matters.


BDC turrets and reticles are by and large marketed to, and used by, people who do not want to learn to shoot and who believe that all they have to do is get a turret marked out to 2,3,4,5,6, and spin it to the number and shoot. I average 3-4 days a week all year long shooting in the mountains in novel environments, see dozens of people a year shoot in it as well, hunt with a dozen plus people a year, and have yet to see a single person shooting a BDC turret that could hit anything past 400’ish yards on demand. Can it be done? Of course. I have an example of someone that does so. However, as has been stated- by the time you can account for the variables to make a BDC work on demand at distance, you don’t need what the BDC offers.

As for your speed…. Nah. Using mils it is easy to have a quick “BDC” like system that is as quick as anything around.

 

[eric1115]

Umm 1 MOA at 700 yards is 7 inches as it is, the temp and altitude are less of a factor than simple human ability. Plus I said that's the assuming you are hunting in weather 100 degrees higher in temp and 8K higher in elevation to make an extreme exaggeration. The difference between say 30-40 degrees in temp and a few thousands ft of elevation at 700 yards is maybe a 3/4 of an inch total at that 700 yards in your ballistic calculations not 8-12 inches as you stated. Come on, not a sole on here or in the world can shoot good enough to notice 3/4 of an inch at 700 yards with a hunting rifle. If your turret is set for -20 and 12K elevation and you move to sea level at 110 degrees in Namibia then yes your custom turret won't work well. If you hunt fall Elk in Utah you are fine, the difference is less than the thickness of your crosshair by a mile, especially if using a FFP scope. For hunting, custom turrets are also quicker. regardless if it's a turret or a calculator it's good info in good info out.

My very slippery 180 Berger hybrid out of my 7mm RM changes poi by about 3.5" going from a winter practice day (20F at my 5500' range) to a warm afternoon late spring bear hunt (75F at 8500') at 600 yards. Do I get my turret cut for practice? Or for hunting? Do I try to split the difference and cheat up during practice and hope I remember to cheat down on that bear hunt instead of up, but be right on for high country cool weather deer?

I don't understand voluntarily adding a couple inches of built in error to my shooting system. It doesn't even have to push you off the bottom of the plate to make you miss. Two inches below center on a 10" plate is a little over 8"wide, so you've decreased your allowance for wind error by 20%.

Often, higher and colder or lower and warmer go together, and cancel each other out to some extent. High elevation and warm temps are both factors that lower air density, so low and cold to high and warm is the most significant change.

 

[Bodie1331]

MV for custom turret - but like many have said you can dial with your present turret for any distance you want to shoot to so long within the limits of your scopes elevation stops. Shoot long at targets a lot - I think hunting should be limited to intermediate-ish distances for the most part unless you are flawless on wind calls.

 

[Happy Antelope]

You're the second person (of two) supporting custom turrets that gave an example indicating you don't understand how temperature impacts ballistics.

You're the second person (of two) supporting custom turrets that gave an example indicating you don't understand how temperature impacts ballistics.

That's not true I just told you what the difference was. 30 degress is 3/4 of an inch at 700 yards. If you have a blistic calculator you can look it up and verify it.

I used the example you gave- 5 inches, and pointed out that is absolutely does matter.





You keep saying temperature as if that is the defining factor. This is the long range hunting section in a forum dedicated to western US hunting- temp is just one factor. I have sat on the exact same ridge elk hunting and in 24 hours had the density altitude (DA) change over 3,500ft- 3/4” is not what the difference is in different environments. Using a .550 G1 BC bullet at 3000’ish FPS MV, every 5k change in DA is right at 6 inches at 700 yards. That matters. In the exact same state two days apart I have killed animals at 8,700ft DA and 1,100ft DA past 600 yards. That change matters.


BDC turrets and reticles are by and large marketed to, and used by, people who do not want to learn to shoot and who believe that all they have to do is get a turret marked out to 2,3,4,5,6, and spin it to the number and shoot. I average 3-4 days a week all year long shooting in the mountains in novel environments, see dozens of people a year shoot in it as well, hunt with a dozen plus people a year, and have yet to see a single person shooting a BDC turret that could hit anything past 400’ish yards on demand. Can it be done? Of course. I have an example of someone that does so. However, as has been stated- by the time you can account for the variables to make a BDC work on demand at distance, you don’t need what the BDC offers.

As for your speed…. Nah. Using mils it is easy to have a quick “BDC” like system that is as quick as anything around.

I'm just saying for normal hunting condition I think a custom turret works just fine. My 7mm-08 has hit animals out well past 700 yards in the US in Winter and Impala in Africa in 80s temp in Africa. I can spin it to 500 and drop a Baboon out of a tree 100% of the time. Again, I showed the math, what's is the difference in inches at say 500 yards with a 30-40 degrees temp change and a 3k elevation increase on a 175 grn 7mm, it's about 1 inch, or so. You are stating they are missing because their calculations are off? Impossible actually, literally impossible. Human error for the average hunter is 5 inches at 500 yards. If their turret is bad to 500 then they put bad data in when having the turret made. Gunwerks, Branded Rock, Best of the West, many shotting schools all have excellent luck with a custom turrets. Also, how is inputting several variables into an app and then counting clicks, faster than just turning the turret? Again, you can still click to a given MIL or MOA calculation with a custom turret, obviously the clicks do not change. A dope chart is basically a custom turret on paper, same thing. I have no doubt you are excellent at what you do, but I have at least a 100 kills with the same custom turret, never missed once. I do not take it to extremes though usually 300-700 yards. I 100% agree the further out the more it matters, but again for normal hunting conditions if someone missed at 500 with their turret that had good info put in to make it they are going to miss with the same info from an app. The difference is not significant enough to cause the miss. 1K yards, 1,500 yards different story. There is also nothing to "learn" about dialing, it's just input a few variables and you are there. Yes real world data, velocity from the barrel, BC, etc all have to be correct, but they have to be correct on a custom turret as well. Lastly wind if a whole different story and of course is the same even if you have an app.

My very slippery 180 Berger hybrid out of my 7mm RM changes poi by about 3.5" going from a winter practice day (20F at my 5500' range) to a warm afternoon late spring bear hunt (75F at 8500') at 600 yards. Do I get my turret cut for practice? Or for hunting? Do I try to split the difference and cheat up during practice and hope I remember to cheat down on that bear hunt instead of up, but be right on for high country cool weather deer?

I don't understand voluntarily adding a couple inches of built in error to my shooting system. It doesn't even have to push you off the bottom of the plate to make you miss. Two inches below center on a 10" plate is a little over 8"wide, so you've decreased your allowance for wind error by 20%.

Often, higher and colder or lower and warmer go together, and cancel each other out to some extent. High elevation and warm temps are both factors that lower air density, so low and cold to high and warm is the most significant change.

My very slippery 180 Berger hybrid out of my 7mm RM changes poi by about 3.5" going from a winter practice day (20F at my 5500' range) to a warm afternoon late spring bear hunt (75F at 8500') at 600 yards. Do I get my turret cut for practice? Or for hunting? Do I try to split the difference and cheat up during practice and hope I remember to cheat down on that bear hunt instead of up, but be right on for high country cool weather deer?

I don't understand voluntarily adding a couple inches of built in error to my shooting system. It doesn't even have to push you off the bottom of the plate to make you miss. Two inches below center on a 10" plate is a little over 8"wide, so you've decreased your allowance for wind error by 20%.

Often, higher and colder or lower and warmer go together, and cancel each other out to some extent. High elevation and warm temps are both factors that lower air density, so low and cold to high and warm is the most significant change.

Hunting of course, or get 2 turrets made. Just dial while at the range, use the info for your average hunting conditions for a custom turret. I have several turrets for different bullets, that's a way bigger factor than the temp swings from the middle of course. BUT if you have one made at 45 degrees and 6k ft of elevation guess what? The difference is better than you can shoot the gun anyway at 600. The goal is to have a turret made that is the in the center, no one has a turret made for 10K elevation and -20, well maybe someone does if hunting 150k sheep in Mongolia, but not me. If you are going to hunt extreme differences from your turret, then dial to what you need. Again a custom turret does NOT change a thing, it's still clicks. A dope Card is a custom turret, but on paper instead of plastic. I have used the same turret all over the US, Europe, Africa, shoot well over 100 animals with the same turret, never once missed an animal under 750 yards that I was 100% steady on. I am not talking wind, that of course is the big factor. I would not take a 500 yard plus shot in heavy wind without some data. I would bet there are as many errors made using a Applied Ballistics inputting wrong data as a custom turret. Not to mention we can use 5 different apps, input the exact same info and literally get .5 to 1 moa difference in the information returned to us at extreme distances. Best info is real world data, regardless if it's etched on plastic or on a cell phone screen.

 

[Happy Antelope]

Really not trying to poke the bear just want to clarify. I gave wildly different elevation and temp swings. I am aware that those conditions you posted are very capable. Especially 3k ft @ 20 deg in the plains and central us.
Let's take your example: but instead of setting a turret up at either of those extremes extrapolate the most common elevation and turrets that will be found on a hunt with that gun.
So instead of 20 deg vs 100.. how about 50-60deg? And instead of 3kft vs 10kft.. how about 6-7,000ft. Can we assume then the most you would be off is 0.6 MOA? ROUGHLY.. I don't have your load data, I am just extrapolating from your given data.
0.6 is roughly 3-4" at 600 yards.. not dead on. But also not widely off enough to make me super nervous.
I don't agree that easy buttons are the reason people are in the woods now. I think that it has more to do with availability of information, a more welcoming group of hunters and social media pushing the cool factor of it. (For good and bad) Hunting has definitely gotten easier. But it has always been getting easier since the first stab with a sharp rock.

I just replied with the exact same info. Thats what I have always done with excellent results. A lot of the hunts I have been on, by the time I got my cell phone screen open the animal would have been long gone.

 

[Happy Antelope]

Why on earth would someone intentionally program 5” worth of potential error into their system? Or any error? What’s the upside? Versus a system with no error and no downside?

5" of error is already there at 700 yards, it's called human error, and I would NEVER have 5" of intentional error because my turret would never be that far off, that's an extreme exaggeration. You can't shoot 5 inch groups 100% of the time at 700 yards even if you know the drop.