Couple questions for the llama packers

[Bull_n_heat]

I'm considering going the llama route. I've packed with them, burros, and horses before, and have pretty much decided on the grounds of maintenance and feed requirements that llamas are the best fit for me.

Related to that, I had a couple of thought questions for those that do pack with them. Do you have preference for male or female packers? Females seem to have a little bit less maintenance associated with them, but might not quite have the added asset of testosterone on their side. Seems like they get along a little better with one another and don't require trimming of fighting teeth.

My second question is: if one went with male llamas, would they have to be roughly the same age? It seems like I could find some older males that are already pack tested, but would I also be able to get a weanling male and not have the adults kick the crap out of it. Is this a pipe dream, or would I just have to be sure to keep them apart until the weanlings are of sufficient size to take care of themselves?

Lastly, what would the ideal number of llamas be? I initially thought that two big llamas (48-50" at withers) would be the sweet spot, and could reduce feeding and animal care needs at home and in the field. Open to ideas there, but I thought 2 would get you a pretty nice camp and 2 empty llamas (and a heavy packed me) could get an elk out in one trip. If you had slightly smaller llamas (~45"), perhaps 3 would be a more realistic number.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Rockchuck]

We currently pack males after using females for few years. We switched to allow our females to just focus on babies as we had a tough time rounding them into shape for packing after weaning each fall. I would still recommend trimming fighting teeth in your females, they fight less, but we have had a female bite a hole thru the ear of another with the tiniest of fighting teeth. Generally though, females are easier keepers when it comes to fighting.

Don't be scared of trimming teeth. It is pretty easy really along with trimming nails, etc. A quick home-fabbed chute will be your best friend for those infrequent times of need.

Our males fight and chase quite a bit more. we have females on our place still and they are inview so it leads to some jockeying for sure. Its important to keep up on their teeth and allow enough space for escape when they get after each other. I feel that all the fighting and bustling are a good thing in the end as it keeps them in better shape and they round into packing form a lot faster. I favor a larger llama in that same range you mentioned, but prefer them to make a lot of that height up in legs vs body depth as it helps in stepping over blowdown that a shorter llama has to jump. I also like a rangier llama over a really heavily muscled llama. I think their endurance is better. I do have a couple shorter males in the 46" range that are no slouches on the trail and keep pace witg the larger boys. Those two are just natural packers and handle any obstacle with ease.

Our first female packrs were around 43" and were good packers, but off trail they struggled more in deadfall due to their height.

We generally keep our younger males seperate from the older males until they mature more and get some better size on them so they don't get pummeled so bad. We do have one older male that is pretty genial and can be in with the youngsters and not pick on them. It really just depends on the personality of the individual llamas.

As for number of llamas, two is certainly good, but 3 or 4 is even better when elk hunting if you want to have a real comfortable camp. 2 can certainly work out as you plan though if you are willing to pack out weight as well.

I like to plan 2 llamas per hunter for deer when packing in several days and having them take all of camp and meat back out. I usually bump that to 3 per hunter when possible for same scenario hunting elk.

 

[Bull_n_heat]

We currently pack males after using females for few years. We switched to allow our females to just focus on babies as we had a tough time rounding them into shape for packing after weaning each fall. I would still recommend trimming fighting teeth in your females, they fight less, but we have had a female bite a hole thru the ear of another with the tiniest of fighting teeth. Generally though, females are easier keepers when it comes to fighting.

Thanks for the info here. Keep them separate seems to be the consensus - unless you really shoot the moon with a non aggressive male.

Out of curiosity, what did you build the trimming chute out of?

 

[wasatchcomm]

with my limited experience, this is how I feel,,
I would suggest no less than 3 for myself for elk hunting,I started with 2 and new instantly I needed more so I got a third and the 4th is coming this spring. all mine are around 5 years old all males.

feeding them is pretty inexpensive compared to other animals year round especially where I live, from what ive been told by the horseman and mule owners.

I upgraded my tent from a tipi and it's much heavier but here in Wy. it will be perfect for the later colder hunts, it did justify the 4th llama for the tent stove alone.

they really are simple to use and 3 take no longer to take care of than 2 so the 4th should not be a issue for myself.

I feel like 4 Is perfect for myself and family, if we harvest an elk, the string and the hunter can haul it out and come back in. depending on terrain and distance elevation gain or loss I think 4 packed with meat is easily done,,I would be comfortable taking mine up to 12 miles per day loaded, (once in good shape) and you are not over using/abusing them,, mine were in great shape, and worked all summer and fall and never gave me a single issue, incredible animals. I also think that here in the great state of Wyoming stock animals are almost a must. if you want to enjoy what Wy has to offer...

good luck you will love them.

 

[nickstone]

Lots of good info. The only thing I would stress is so much depends on their individual personalities and abilities vs their sex.

I have intact males, geldings, and females that I use for packing depending on circumstances.
I don't have a preference based on sex. I have a few females that don't get along with each other just like some of my males, depending on their position in the string.

I usually take 3-5 depending on what I'm doing. I try to have the same for anybody else going with me. I've never heard a llama owner say they have too many llamas.

Where in Wyoming are you? If you're interested in just packing females holler at Pete with Bighorn Pack llamas. He's a great guy and just packs females.

 

[Bull_n_heat]

Thanks for the info @nickstone. A buddy of mine also has a gaggle of females, and has no complaints. I'd think if you work with them, that makes much more difference than what is between their legs.

I'm in Pinedale, but I will try to reach out the Pete with Bighorn Pack Llamas. I appreciate that info.

 

[nickstone]

Thanks for the info @nickstone. A buddy of mine also has a gaggle of females, and has no complaints. I'd think if you work with them, that makes much more difference than what is between their legs.

I'm in Pinedale, but I will try to reach out the Pete with Bighorn Pack Llamas. I appreciate that info.

@wasatchcomm is your neighbor too.

 

[Rockchuck]

Thanks for the info here. Keep them separate seems to be the consensus - unless you really shoot the moon with a non aggressive male.

Out of curiosity, what did you build the trimming chute out of?

I bought some treated posts and used up some extra lumber I had laying around then added some boat cleats on the front posts to tie leads off to. Here are a couple pics as I was throwing it together. I made it so I can slide the side slats out if needed. Can also string up so cinches from them to hold a cantankerous llama up or down if needed while you work. Pretty cheap, but effective. You could also weld one up or buy one if you want to lay out some more cash.

 

[Bull_n_heat]

I bought some treated posts and used up some extra lumber I had laying around then added some boat cleats on the front posts to tie leads off to. Here are a couple pics as I was throwing it together. I made it so I can slide the side slats out if needed. Can also string up so cinches from them to hold a cantankerous llama up or down if needed while you work. Pretty cheap, but effective. You could also weld one up or buy one if you want to lay out some more cash.

Now that's some American Ingenuity. I like it and will definitely have to give that a try if we go the male route.

 

[squirrel]

You can use women, you can use men, but I would very much advise not using men and women in the same string...

If you mix boys of different ages have cross fenced pastures so you can keep the little guys as little guys until they are about 2+ and can hold their own or at least out run the sexual predators. Inevitably you will have some issues but re-sort asap. last years yearling crop jumped the fence to join the big guys 4 times before they figured out that it really hurts to do that. Dumbest ones Ive ever had, usually takes one trip into the sodomites pen.

Dont pack or trail train until they are 2-3. having a trail ready llama is a 4 year journey, take your time.
After 3 years and teeth cut toss 'em together and let them figure it out.


the correct number of llamas is one more than you have. Here I needed 7.

 

[nickstone]

I was working with some 18 month old boys the other days and my wife said, “ I’m surprised you haven’t trained them to jump on or over the picnic table”…….actually I have. .

 

[Bull_n_heat]

Well, it seems a decision has been made. We're gonna pick up 2 female llamas and give it a go. One is a bit older and has been worked with quite a bit, and the other is a 2 year old from Scott over at Lander Llama. Both I think have a big upside and I really appreciated talking with several of the different llama breeders and packers out there. They were super helpful and very welcoming. The folks on this forum have also been second to none, so I thank you all for that.

Now the decision becomes what tack to select. I have used the Beau Baty/Al Ellis saddle setup several times and like it, but know that there are other options out there (and probably cheaper ones). I have spoken with Dennis at Montana Llama Guides/Black Thunder Gear and like their setup in concept, but haven't seen it in person. I have also talked with Levi at Llamas Unlimited and think they probably have a saddle that might work. I truly doubt I have the craftsmanship skills to build one, but I have seen that done plenty too.

So, any thoughts on saddles, panniers or other pack tack would be greatly appreciated!

 

[BCSojourner]

Well, it seems a decision has been made. We're gonna pick up 2 female llamas and give it a go. One is a bit older and has been worked with quite a bit, and the other is a 2 year old from Scott over at Lander Llama. Both I think have a big upside and I really appreciated talking with several of the different llama breeders and packers out there. They were super helpful and very welcoming. The folks on this forum have also been second to none, so I thank you all for that.

Now the decision becomes what tack to select. I have used the Beau Baty/Al Ellis saddle setup several times and like it, but know that there are other options out there (and probably cheaper ones). I have spoken with Dennis at Montana Llama Guides/Black Thunder Gear and like their setup in concept, but haven't seen it in person. I have also talked with Levi at Llamas Unlimited and think they probably have a saddle that might work. I truly doubt I have the craftsmanship skills to build one, but I have seen that done plenty too.

So, any thoughts on saddles, panniers or other pack tack would be greatly appreciated!

Check out Sopris Llama Gear. They have been selling saddles and panniers for about 50 years. They are made by Amish folks so that should give you an idea about quality. Their Roughy is a really good saddle-have been using them since 1998 and my panniers purchased at the same time are still in great shape. Their halters are the best-they will 'stand' in your hand which makes it really easy to halter a llama. Sopris even sells duffel bags made out of the pannier material sized to fit panniers. Sopris prices are very competitive and quite a bit cheaper than Beau's. Charlie Hackbarth, owner of Sopris, has been around llamas forever and he has a good book out there entitled "Tales of the Trail'. Give him a call if you have questions about any of the gear.

 

[wasatchcomm]

'

So, any thoughts on saddles, panniers or other pack tack would be greatly appreciated!

I run all Sopris as well, excellent high quality gear, I get everything from them,, just got my 4th boys set up, if you ever want to check it out in person let me know.

 

[kendall04]

Well, it seems a decision has been made. We're gonna pick up 2 female llamas and give it a go. One is a bit older and has been worked with quite a bit, and the other is a 2 year old from Scott over at Lander Llama. Both I think have a big upside and I really appreciated talking with several of the different llama breeders and packers out there. They were super helpful and very welcoming. The folks on this forum have also been second to none, so I thank you all for that.

Now the decision becomes what tack to select. I have used the Beau Baty/Al Ellis saddle setup several times and like it, but know that there are other options out there (and probably cheaper ones). I have spoken with Dennis at Montana Llama Guides/Black Thunder Gear and like their setup in concept, but haven't seen it in person. I have also talked with Levi at Llamas Unlimited and think they probably have a saddle that might work. I truly doubt I have the craftsmanship skills to build one, but I have seen that done plenty too.

So, any thoughts on saddles, panniers or other pack tack would be greatly appreciated!

How’s the transition to Llama life been? I have 6 pack goats and I’m looking into selling them off and getting 4-6 llamas eventually. I have talked to WRTL and Pete. Both great guys. Seems tough to find a trained Llama these days.

 

[Bull_n_heat]

How’s the transition to Llama life been? I have 6 pack goats and I’m looking into selling them off and getting 4-6 llamas eventually. I have talked to WRTL and Pete. Both great guys. Seems tough to find a trained Llama these days.

Oh it's coming along. We got one trained, middle aged gal, and a lead-broken but mostly untrained 2 year old girl a couple weeks ago. Training her with the older gal has been easier than I anticipated, and definitely enjoyable. Had them on several hikes now and looking forward to getting packs on both of them.

I agree with your assessment though. We got really lucky with the older gal, but there are a few to be had that are trained. I think Levi in Powel (Llamas Unlimited) was selling a couple of her trained packers not too long ago. She was a good resource and good to talk with (as are Beau and Pete). There's always some others floating around if you look on KSL or craigslist. Hard to find the pedigrees that those two have, but some diamonds in the rough are out there.

 

[kendall04]

Oh it's coming along. We got one trained, middle aged gal, and a lead-broken but mostly untrained 2 year old girl a couple weeks ago. Training her with the older gal has been easier than I anticipated, and definitely enjoyable. Had them on several hikes now and looking forward to getting packs on both of them.

I agree with your assessment though. We got really lucky with the older gal, but there are a few to be had that are trained. I think Levi in Powel (Llamas Unlimited) was selling a couple of her trained packers not too long ago. She was a good resource and good to talk with (as are Beau and Pete). There's always some others floating around if you look on KSL or craigslist. Hard to find the pedigrees that those two have, but some diamonds in the rough are out there.

Nice. I’m really looking forward it! Elk aren’t getting lighter every year.

 

[Zackcarp]

We've got a couple girls we picked up from Scott at Lander. Great folks. The females we got from there have been awesome. Very athletic and easy to handle.

I run sopris myself. I'm a cheap wad, but my buddy has the black thunders and they are much nicer than my sopris, and tend not to slide around as much.

A buddy and I packed out an elk in Colorado with 3 lamas last fall. About 11 miles out heavy. To me, elk hunting, I think 4 is the sweet spot. But 3 is doable. Keep us updated on your progress!

 

[Bull_n_heat]

Wanted to give a quick update on the llama experience. I did get the two gals in May and worked with them through the summer. I actually really enjoyed it. One was an older gal that had pretty much seen it, as they say. The younger one was 2 and had been halter and lead trained, but not packed at all. It was fun to watch her build skills and get more comfortable with everything (and frustrating at times!).

All told, I think we spent about 20 days in the mountains, and I even let them tag along for a short pack out when my dad and cousins. Both did well around the meat, so that was very encouraging. Hoping to get more exposure to that in the coming years!

It seems that the N+1 notion for "optimal" number of llamas has also infected me. So, currently looking to add a third to the string. Wondering if folks have had any issues putting a gelded male into a string of otherwise girls? Seems like there are a few options for geldings out there, and wouldn't mind going that route if it worked.

Appreciate all the feedback and info that I garnered here - can't say how helpful that has been!

 

[nickstone]

Wanted to give a quick update on the llama experience. I did get the two gals in May and worked with them through the summer. I actually really enjoyed it. One was an older gal that had pretty much seen it, as they say. The younger one was 2 and had been halter and lead trained, but not packed at all. It was fun to watch her build skills and get more comfortable with everything (and frustrating at times!).

All told, I think we spent about 20 days in the mountains, and I even let them tag along for a short pack out when my dad and cousins. Both did well around the meat, so that was very encouraging. Hoping to get more exposure to that in the coming years!

It seems that the N+1 notion for "optimal" number of llamas has also infected me. So, currently looking to add a third to the string. Wondering if folks have had any issues putting a gelded male into a string of otherwise girls? Seems like there are a few options for geldings out there, and wouldn't mind going that route if it worked.

Appreciate all the feedback and info that I garnered here - can't say how helpful that has been!

View attachment 655769

I've mixed geldings and females in a string before and didn't have any issues.