Corner Crossing in Montana

[RMRForester15]

Alright, Lets see what kind of discussing I can get off of this post. This seems to be a re-occurring conversation between some hunting friends and myself.

I live in Montana and in the regulations for the state it says the corner crossing "is not recommended."

In my eyes I see that as I could do it and can see that holding up in court.

Any one have any comments on this?

 

[wind gypsy]

This exact topic was discussed on a recent meat eater podcast. Their take was similar to yours. A guy would think you'd hear more about cases relating to this.

 

[Matt Cashell]

There is no codified law. It is left to local county prosecutors’ discretion. There is an old US Supreme Court ruling saying that property ownership extends to the air above the ground. This ruling has not been applied to a corner crossing case in Montana that I am aware of. So ... proceed at your own risk. You might get cited and/or prosecuted.

 

[ramont]

How does this keep coming up over and over? I suspect that a lot of people simply reject anything that's counter to what they want to do and ignore the things that say they can't do what they want.

On page 16 of the 2018 Montana Fish, Wildlife, and Parks regulations it states specifically;

Access to public land through private land requires permission of the private land owner, lessee, or their agent.

Since FWP regulations are codified in Montana Law I'd recommend doing a little more research before you base your corner crossing decisions on some bar buddy's interpretation.

 

[Scrappy]

Access to public land through private land requires permission of the private land owner, lessee, or their agent. So according to the statement corner crossing is legal cause your not going through private land?

 

[Matt Cashell]

Since FWP regulations are codified in Montana Law I'd recommend doing a little more research before you base your corner crossing decisions on some bar buddy's interpretation.

There is no “corner crossing” law codified. There was an attempt a few years ago that attempted to codify it as legal, but it was killed.

The question becomes whether stepping foot from one public place to another constitutes a trespass through the air over the private ground.

Like I said, there seems to be a possible applicable US Supreme Court decision, but I don’t believe there is case law in Montana applying it to this scenario.

The safe bet is not to corner cross.

 

[danmayland]

There is no codified law. It is left to local county prosecutors’ discretion. There is an old US Supreme Court ruling saying that property ownership extends to the air above the ground. This ruling has not been applied to a corner crossing case in Montana that I am aware of. So ... proceed at your own risk. You might get cited and/or prosecuted.

exactly what Matt said. Yes the law is somewhat open for interpretation but that interpretation will ultimately be decided by the local prosecutor. Are you confident that the corner you crossed is at the exact location you assume it to be? The devices you’re using to determine where you think that corner exists more than likely specifies that they are not to be used to determine that exact location. When you agree to use that device or software you agree not to use it for that purpose. Therefore you cannot use that as a defense in any criminal or civil case.

OnXmaps for instance has the exact language “DO NOT USE THE SERVICE FOR ANY PURPOSE REQUIRING PRECISE DIRECTION, DISTANCE OR LOCATION.”

Therefore, should you chose to cross that corner you will need very specific information and evidence that you crossed the actual property corner from public land to public land. Still the prosecuting attorney make take criminal action against you and as Matt mentioned there is prior US case law that property ownership extends to the airspace directly above the property. Imagine an invisible wall extending the property boundaries of those corners extending from the ground up into the sky. Could you cross through that corner without touching any walls? The answer is no. You couldn’t. Not without going over the wall. The Supreme Court hasn’t defined to my knowledge how high the wall is or how far the property ownership extends. I personally wouldn’t want to be the guy to challenge. Just my .2C.

I’m a public land owner and hunter and I completely understand the debate and would like to see “corner jumping” made adequately legal!


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[LostArra]

Not worth the grief.
If you are non-resident, who wants to return for a court case to hopefully prove a point?

Also, unless there is a reliably located fence or other marker on the corner, I would be hesitant to trust any hand held gps device to locate a corner to cross since 3 meters is about as accurate as you can get and most of the time it's 10 meters. Most of us aren't carrying backpack-sized survey grade gps units with external antennae to get 1/2 meter accuracy.

 

[wind gypsy]

So what we need is some surveyors to mark prominent corners where this is an issue..

 

[mvmnts]

Not recommended means that it hasn't been tested in court, so unless you want to lawyer up and bring some new case law into the arena, then don't do it. I mean if you have the money for that, please do, that would be awesome, but it sounds like you just want a new place to hunt. You won't find it corner crossing.

 

[mtwarden]

I got to deal with this a fair bit in Eastern Montana. There are no legal precedents dealing exclusively with corner crossing. Efforts from one side to legalize have failed, ditto on the other side (outlaw it).

our policy was not to write citations in these cases and instead investigate and refer them to the county attorney for consideration. The exception being if the crossing was obviously not at the corner- that person(s) was cited.

there were several folks that decided it was worth rolling the dice, none that I’m aware of that were prosecuted

I did have one fellow that was very up front a about it and even let the landowner know that he was going to be crossing, sadly he came back to truck with four flat tires, no proof, but obvious who did it

bottom line- you are rolling the dice, if a prosecutor wants to persue charges, he will- doesn’t mean he will win, but it will consume your time and money

 

[ramont]

I got to deal with this a fair bit in Eastern Montana. There are no legal precedents dealing exclusively with corner crossing. Efforts from one side to legalize have failed, ditto on the other side (outlaw it).

our policy was not to write citations in these cases and instead investigate and refer them to the county attorney for consideration. The exception being if the crossing was obviously not at the corner- that person(s) was cited.

there were several folks that decided it was worth rolling the dice, none that I’m aware of that were prosecuted

I did have one fellow that was very up front a about it and even let the landowner know that he was going to be crossing, sadly he came back to truck with four flat tires, no proof, but obvious who did it

bottom line- you are rolling the dice, if a prosecutor wants to persue charges, he will- doesn’t mean he will win, but it will consume your time and money

I just finished talking with the law enforcement division of the FWP and they are still following the same process, they will investigate corner crossing if it's reported or they see it but they simply refer the case to the county attorney's office for consideration. But what mtwarden hasn't pointed out is that this is the policy because the legal department of the FWP has decided that there is enough law on the books in regards to trespassing that corner crossing would probably be declared illegal if it were to actually be tested in court. The FWP legal department tells people that you can't corner cross so that if anyone takes the issue to court then the FWP can't be found complicit in encouraging trespassing.

As for you people that always say that you aren't trespassing when you cross at a corner - do you really believe that drivel or are you just being contrary? There is a lot of trespassing law that has already proven that you can't possibly follow a property line without occupying private space, either on the ground or in the air above it. And yes, as a land owner it is settled law that you own some amount of the air space above the ground, if you didn't then you couldn't build or grow anything above ground level. Typically the amount of air space is assumed to be to the height of a typical two story house. This is why some people have been forced to remove private wind generators and flagpoles from their property, those things stood higher than the typical two story house and as such exceeded their private property boundaries.

 

[ramont]

Here's a novel idea, call the property owner and ask for permission to cross his property

I know, it's just too difficult right? I mean in Montana all you have to do is use the Montana Cadastral web site (Montana Cadastral) and it'll provide the name and contact information of any and all of the property owners in the state.

 

[realunlucky]

Here's a novel idea, call the property owner and ask for permission to cross his property

I know, it's just too difficult right? I mean in Montana all you have to do is use the Montana Cadastral web site (Montana Cadastral) and it'll provide the name and contact information of any and all of the property owners in the state.

Because no one wants 4 flat tires when they get back to thier truck.

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[cornfedkiller]

As someone who isn't real familiar with out west, can someone explain to me what corner-crossing is?

 

[Hunter Sargent]

As someone who isn't real familiar with out west, can someone explain to me what corner-crossing is?

Public land is intermixed with private land in a checkerboard pattern. Corner crossing would be like stepping from one red square to another red square on the checkerboard, without technically setting foot on a black square (private). Its great for the landowners because they basically get their own extra section of land that they don't have to pay for, and they control access to. It sucks for everyone else. It would be nice if easements could be made to settle all of this, allowing access to the public who own the public land. Rant over/

 

[BroodBuster]

It’s where four checkerboards meet. So the red squares are public but the black squares are private. But in reality the four black squares surrounding the one red square get to share it while the public need permission to access it.

 

[Murdy]

Are you confident that the corner you crossed is at the exact location you assume it to be? The devices you’re using to determine where you think that corner exists more than likely specifies that they are not to be used to determine that exact location. When you agree to use that device or software you agree not to use it for that purpose. Therefore you cannot use that as a defense in any criminal or civil case.

OnXmaps for instance has the exact language “DO NOT USE THE SERVICE FOR ANY PURPOSE REQUIRING PRECISE DIRECTION, DISTANCE OR LOCATION.”

Therefore, should you chose to cross that corner you will need very specific information and evidence that you crossed the actual property corner from public land to public land.

Not exactly, you never have to prove your innocence. The burden is on the State to prove that you trespassed. The legal issue will be whether invading that airspace above the land constituted trespassing. In most states, I'm pretty sure the answer would be yes. You can't, for example, allow a projection from a building on your land to cross a property line. On the other hand, airplane over-flights are permissible. I think the question turns on whether the entry into the air space would/could interfere with the owner's use and enjoyment of the land. Clearly, less than five feet off the ground would.

BTW, the gps companies disclaimer is more to protect them from being sued if you are successfully prosecuted for trespassing after you go somewhere the gps told you you could.

 

[cornfedkiller]

Public land is intermixed with private land in a checkerboard pattern. Corner crossing would be like stepping from one red square to another red square on the checkerboard, without technically setting foot on a black square (private). Its great for the landowners because they basically get their own extra section of land that they don't have to pay for, and they control access to. It sucks for everyone else. It would be nice if easements could be made to settle all of this, allowing access to the public who own the public land. Rant over/

So if 2 pieces of public land touch corners, it sounds like there is no specific law preventing me from going from the one to the other, but its something that is frowned upon?

 

[3forks]

Here's a novel idea, call the property owner and ask for permission to cross his property

I know, it's just too difficult right? I mean in Montana all you have to do is use the Montana Cadastral web site (Montana Cadastral) and it'll provide the name and contact information of any and all of the property owners in the state.

Because there is a lot of public checkerboarded by private and many landowners use the corner-crossing argument as a way to control access to the public land their property touches, essentially making it theirs.

I believe in the rights of landowners, but i also believe in the public having access to public lands.

Do you have property that is affected by the concept of corner crossing? If so, would you allow someone to corner-cross if they asked?