Copper fouling and quality bullets

[TheCougar]

I'm building 7mm RM for an Alaskan moose hunt in 2018. I've traditionally shot the standard bullets - Remington core lokt, Winchester super x and ballistic tips, etc. But with moose coming up, I've been looking at higher quality bullets such as the Barnes vor-tx and nosler partition, both 160gr. I've never had to worry about copper fouling with the lower end bullets, but it sounds like it is a price you pay for high end ammunition.

How may rounds do I need to shoot before I clean out the copper?
Are there any quality, accurate rounds with high mass retention that don't have the copper fouling problem?

Thanks for your words of wisdom to this lowly bow hunter...

 

[Yellowknife]

Premium bullets are made with the same copper as cheap bullets. Not sure where you got that story, but it's way off.....


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[TheCougar]

Hmm I thought I had read somewhere that there are different grades of copper, some which foul more and some less. Either way other my question about cleaning stands. I've never done the painful copper cleaning. How often should I do this?

 

[Jason Snyder]

I've shot about 80 rounds of Barnes TSX bullets through my .243 without cleaning, and it shoots just fine.


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[Yellowknife]

The older non-grooved Barnes sometimes had fouling issues, but that's long since cured.

As far as time between cleanings, that's dependent on the quality of the barrel. A rough barrel will copper pretty bad. A good one, almost not at all. I clean my Tikka every 100 or so to get the powder fouling out, but copper is minimal. Had one Ruger and a Savage that collected it at a rapid pace. Most are in the middle.


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[mtswampfox]

When shooting prairie dogs always loaded the rounds 100 to a zip lock bag. Would place 25 on the shooting table at a time. When gone would run a couple of patches with c-10 followed with clean patches. After a full bag would add some scrubbing with bronze brush. Felt getting after fouling before it became a problem was prudent. Also gave the barell a break to cool down....

 

[ScottinPA]

Ditto the barrel bore quality comment. I had a factory Remington that fouled rather quickly and was a bugger to clean. I have a Douglass XX barrel on my 358STA and it'll foul eventually but cleans quicker. I shoot NP for hunting and Gamekings for practice. Typically use Butches bore shine for copper fouling. Use a Q-tip and a strong flashlight to see the copper from the muzzle. Stick tip in and shine the light. Cuts down on the glare enough to see copper.
For really bad fouling I use Flitz compound then Butch's. Bought a .243 that was told didn't shoot better than 2" MOA. A couple hours on the cleaning stand and it'll shoot better than 1" MOA.

 

[dkynoch]

I know I am new here but saw this and thought I would post. I shot long range competitively for several years. I put about 2000-3000 rounds through the same rifle a year and was around a lot of people that put a lot of rounds through the same rifle. I didn't really worry about copper fouling that much, mostly carbon fouling. Carbon fouling would ruin a barrel if not kept in check.

To keep carbon fouling in check most guys used a good powder solvent every 200 rounds or so after a big match or used wipeout. Wipeout does get copper fouling and powder fouling and leaves the rifle really clean.

For a hunting rifle I just swab the barrel out with hoppes no. 9 on a patch after each range session if I am not going to shoot it in the near future, if I am going to shoot it soon I like to leave it fouled. You can leave a little hoppes in the barrel when you put it away and then run a dry patch through it just before you take it out the next time.

My theory with copper fouling is whats the point of getting it all out when the very first shot puts some right back. I aim to keep it in check rather than get it all out with each cleaning. This helps prevent you from ruining your bore from cleaning, which happens more than I think most people realize.

 

[16Bore]

Wipe out is some good stuff. I put a foot of 3/16" fuel line hose on the nozzle so I could squirt from the chamber instead of the muzzle. Works like a charm.

I was a Kroil/Butches/JB paste/Kroil fan before.


Wipe out is just stupid easy.

 

[Jason Snyder]

Agreed on the Wipe Out. My JB Bore Paste doesn't get used much anymore.


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[16Bore]

I left a pile of cleaning solvents at my range, first come first served. I'm sure someone was happy to have it. I did keep a small bottle of Hoppes #9 for nostalgia cleaning of my old Glenfield 22LR

 

[pods8 (Rugged Stitching)]

Per the OP, the all copper bullets are sometimes a softer grade of copper to achieve the performance desired in the absence of a lead core. Perhaps this is where you got the incorrect impression that all premium bullets foul more?

I use barnes TTSX and LRX in my rifles to hunt with (thus I also practice with them for tuning), I do get some copper build up but haven't ever had it affect performance in the period of time it was there before I cleaned it out again. I'm sure I've had 50rds+ of all copper rounds through my barrels before between cleaning sessions so it shouldn't be a concern about loosing accuracy during a hunt or something. I clean my guns going into hunting season and then shoot my final confirmation shots so my bores are pretty clean.

I use the liquid version of the wipe out noted above called "patch out" I like it. It cleans powder/carbon/copper but is a gentle solvent (so it takes a bit of soak time between patches when eventually doing a deep cleaning) that you can leave sitting in the bore to work everything loose.

 

[Mister Shush]

I'm a law enforcement firearms instructor, armorer and served for 12 years in the Marine Corps as a Scout Sniper. Don't worry about copper fouling. In fact, don't stress about cleaning your bore. Most people do more damage to their rifles in cleaning them than they do shooting them. Something most people don't expect to hear from a sniper is that we shoot dirty guns. I'll go 250 rounds or more before my bore even sees a patch. I rarely (can't remember the last time I did) used a brush and if I did, it was nylon and not metal of any kind.

The subject of cleaning rifles creates consternation on par with your friend finding out that you're dating his mother. I'm not here to tell anyone what to do or piss in anyone's Cheerios, but most people clean their rifles way, way too much. Understanding that every rifle is different, there comes a point where your rifle will begin to suffer accuracy loss and that's when it should be cleaned (being dropped in saltwater or dragged behind a truck not withstanding). Try cleaning your rifle meticulously and then shoot it without cleaning the bore until you see your groups opening up. You'll be quite surprised how long that is. Another tip: Do not clean your rifle with a sectional cleaning rod. They are notorious for scratching bores. When I do wet patch my rifle, I use a product called Shooter's Choice MC-7. It can usually be found at Walmart. It's cheaper than whatever the latest, greatest product made from unicorn tears or dragon saliva happens to be and it works.

A great article was written several years ago by the late Chief Warrant Officer of Marines, Pat Rogers. For those of you unfamiliar with what a CWO is in the Marine Corps, he or she is a Subject Matter Expert in their particular field. In Pat's case, he was a small arms expert and served for a time in the Foreign Materials Acquisition Exploitation Unit (a unit that "finds" enemy weapons and weapons systems in order to test and examine them). He was also a Distinguished Expert rifle shooter and NRA High Master Rifle. In short, he forgot more about rifles than you know. The article is about keeping an AR weapons system functioning, but it applies to most, if not all rifles. It is canon amongst riflemen:

http://www.slip2000.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/keepitrunning1.pdf

 

[GKPrice]

I'm a law enforcement firearms instructor, armorer and served for 12 years in the Marine Corps as a Scout Sniper. Don't worry about copper fouling. In fact, don't stress about cleaning your bore. Most people do more damage to their rifles in cleaning them than they do shooting them. Something most people don't expect to hear from a sniper is that we shoot dirty guns. I'll go 250 rounds or more before my bore even sees a patch. I rarely (can't remember the last time I did) used a brush and if I did, it was nylon and not metal of any kind.

The subject of cleaning rifles creates consternation on par with your friend finding out that you're dating his mother. I'm not here to tell anyone what to do or piss in anyone's Cheerios, but most people clean their rifles way, way too much. Understanding that every rifle is different, there comes a point where your rifle will begin to suffer accuracy loss and that's when it should be cleaned (being dropped in saltwater or dragged behind a truck not withstanding). Try cleaning your rifle meticulously and then shoot it without cleaning the bore until you see your groups opening up. You'll be quite surprised how long that is. Another tip: Do not clean your rifle with a sectional cleaning rod. They are notorious for scratching bores. When I do wet patch my rifle, I use a product called Shooter's Choice MC-7. It can usually be found at Walmart. It's cheaper than whatever the latest, greatest product made from unicorn tears or dragon saliva happens to be and it works.

A great article was written several years ago by the late Chief Warrant Officer of Marines, Pat Rogers. For those of you unfamiliar with what a CWO is in the Marine Corps, he or she is a Subject Matter Expert in their particular field. In Pat's case, he was a small arms expert and served for a time in the Foreign Materials Acquisition Exploitation Unit (a unit that "finds" enemy weapons and weapons systems in order to test and examine them). He was also a Distinguished Expert rifle shooter and NRA High Master Rifle. In short, he forgot more about rifles than you know. The article is about keeping an AR weapons system functioning, but it applies to most, if not all rifles. It is canon amongst riflemen:

http://www.slip2000.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/keepitrunning1.pdf

^^^^^^^ what he's saying 110% ! ^^^^^^^

 

[GKPrice]

Per the OP, the all copper bullets are sometimes a softer grade of copper to achieve the performance desired in the absence of a lead core. Perhaps this is where you got the incorrect impression that all premium bullets foul more?

I use barnes TTSX and LRX in my rifles to hunt with (thus I also practice with them for tuning), I do get some copper build up but haven't ever had it affect performance in the period of time it was there before I cleaned it out again. I'm sure I've had 50rds+ of all copper rounds through my barrels before between cleaning sessions so it shouldn't be a concern about loosing accuracy during a hunt or something. I clean my guns going into hunting season and then shoot my final confirmation shots so my bores are pretty clean.

I use the liquid version of the wipe out noted above called "patch out" I like it. It cleans powder/carbon/copper but is a gentle solvent (so it takes a bit of soak time between patches when eventually doing a deep cleaning) that you can leave sitting in the bore to work everything loose.

"copper" bullets are not necessarily "copper" but in fact some are "gilding metal", a material that has been meticulously developed originally as the jacket for bullets of many types - GMX's are a good example, if one reads the Hornady literature it's clearly stated that they are made of gilding metal to reduce fouling AND friction, Nosler uses another type in most all of their hunting and varmint bullets - no two bullets types or brands will foul the same of "act" the same for that matter - Barnes chose to stay with all copper so they picked the "reduce friction & fouling by redesign" and they got it right IMO - I haven't worked with GMX much due to the length (gilding metal is lighter by volume than copper of lead) but they appear to be outstanding on killing stuff - I have worked with ETips quite a lot and they are also outstanding killers with a bit slower minimum velocity to expand adequately, they don't seem to want to shoot in "all" guns but when they do shoot well they have shot extremely well for me - I'm going to develop a load (hoping) with 150 ETips, for my '06 AI and based on what I've seen come out of dead elk I personally think that may end up being my all around load (God willing) Although the 180 Accbond will be a tough bullet to replace

 

[Formidilosus]

I have been hesitant to post, as I didn't want it to seem contrarian... again.


For those that clean their barrel after each time they shoot it, or at set intervals, what is it that you believe you are accomplishing? If the gun hasn't started shooting bad, why are you messing with it? Shoot them and forget cleaning until they start shooting bad. That may end up being A LOT of rounds.



I haven't cleaned my comp 308 ever. This group was shot a few days ago- 10 rounds at 100 yards. The barrel is approaching 3,000 rounds without so much as a patch.

This is 10 rounds at 100yds while re zeroing a T3. Again this barrel is right at or just over 3,000 rounds without anything being done.

Granted magnums sometimes tend to want to be cleaned sooner, but I still go 150-300 rounds on average with 300WM, 243's, etc. There's a lot of myths in shooting that show themselves when you start testing them.... excessive barrel cleaning is one.

 

[bhylton]

to be accurate things need to be consistent. the most consistent barrel is one that is fouled. if a bore is clean, the conditions of the bore change every shot until it becomes fouled, then they stay consistent for often very many rounds. I used to chase my tail during load development because i would clean between range sessions and could never find a consistently accurate load. once i stopped removing copper fouling all my rifles shot better.

I have heard that powder fouling can be somewhat corrosive so i do run some hoppes if the gun will sit for awhile. this,however, removes little copper.

good luck!

 

[GKPrice]

to be accurate things need to be consistent. the most consistent barrel is one that is fouled. if a bore is clean, the conditions of the bore change every shot until it becomes fouled, then they stay consistent for often very many rounds. I used to chase my tail during load development because i would clean between range sessions and could never find a consistently accurate load. once i stopped removing copper fouling all my rifles shot better.

I have heard that powder fouling can be somewhat corrosive so i do run some hoppes if the gun will sit for awhile. this,however, removes little copper.

good luck!

I don't think "corrosive" is correct unless using some old old powder - I've been trying the newer "anti-copper" powders but I can't say I've any truly useful info to post at this point - there are pro vs con ideas about powder fouling that should be spoken about as I think they're enlightening as well

 

[oenanthe]

Hey, I'm not trying to stir the pot or anything but what are your thoughts on frequent cleaning during barrel break-in?

I clean my hunting rifle about once a year (and it sees almost zero copper fouling), but I cleaned it frequently (and carefully!) during break-in and it was definitely retaining quite a bit of copper during the first 100 rounds or so.

 

[bhylton]

I don't think "corrosive" is correct unless using some old old powder - I've been trying the newer "anti-copper" powders but I can't say I've any truly useful info to post at this point - there are pro vs con ideas about powder fouling that should be spoken about as I think they're enlightening as well

I may very well be incorrect. I have only heard this from a couple people but never researched it for myself. Just seemed concevable to me that something in the powder residue could negatively affect the bore. But I've never looked very far into it

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