Condensation...this floorless shelter experiment may be over

[Davebuech]

Yeah but can you stand up in your MS LT? Walk in with your shoes on? Use a stove?

Personal preference but I love the Sawtooth and yes, I have a liner. I found leaving it zipped down from the top like Akicita mentions helps eliminate the majority of condensation, especially at night.

Thanks everyone for the input. Sounds like I need to vent it better, and may need a liner. I'm wondering if I would be better off using a small double walled tent without a stove. Between the shelter, liners, and stove I will have $1,200 in this thing which seems ridiculous when I have never had condensation issues in my Mountainsmith Mountain Shelter LT that I bought for $80. I've even slept 2 in it which is a lot of respiration for such a small volume...and no condensation.

 

[1signguy]

Can't imagine going back to (crawling into) a traditional tent with a floor/low ceiling and no stove. That would be like moving back into my first apartment... Just not going to happen! With two guys you can pack in the Sawtooth with liner and stove at such an insignificant weigh penalty and have a much higher comfort level. I know in my case it extends the time I am willing to stay in the back country in wet/cold conditions before I need a break.

Its a little more expensive but worth every penny!!!

 

[AdamW]

No, but generalities can be applied when condensation occurs 100% of nights of differing conditions in the Redcliff, and 0% of of nights of differing conditions in the Mountainsmith, right?

Condensation is a matter of inside vs outside temperature, amount of ventilation and the amount of condensation (respiratory) for a given volume. Condensation issues exist in the LT too (I have one).

I get what you're saying about size/weight/cost of getting a condensation free-ish shelter. All the options have been laid out, it's just a matter of what you want to do going forward. Bugs for our home weather/seasons and condensation are my 2 biggest gripes about floorless, as it is with most people.

 

[Backpack Hunter]

No, but generalities can be applied when condensation occurs 100% of nights of differing conditions in the Redcliff, and 0% of of nights of differing conditions in the Mountainsmith, right?

I understand what you are getting at, but would still have to say no just because of the myriad of variables on a camping trip that could easily contribute to condensation.

Esse quam videri

 

[Kevin Dill]

At some point a tipi maker is going to figure out a way to add upper vents (or ventilation) to enhance air flow and minimize condensation. It won't address all situations but will be a step in the right direction.

Interior condensation is also encouraged or minimized according to overall relative humidity outside, plus outside air temps. Fabric which is both cold and wet (from dew) greatly increases the probability of interior condensation forming. Ground moisture inside the tipi is another source of vapor which can condense. Probably the best strategy involves a combined approach of improving ventilation, warming and drying the interior when possible, using liners, and avoiding moisture introduction as much as possible. Hang damp clothes and gear outside. Cook outside whenever possible.

 

[justin davis]

I don't use a liner and I use Down sleeping bags. I camp 4 seasons but I'm mostly in Colorado where it's relatively dry. Can bring a little towel to dry off the walls if you need. Never been bothered by it.

Once you go flourless you will never go back to a tent I think.

 

[mrgreen]

At some point a tipi maker is going to figure out a way to add upper vents (or ventilation) to enhance air flow and minimize condensation. It won't address all situations but will be a step in the right direction.

My HMG Ultamid 2 had vents. In my Tut I prop open the stove jack to vent when it's warm. It definitely helps.

 

[Tsnider]

yeah if i need to an its not raining i use that top zipper on the sawtooth and open the top about 8 inches to allow some air to escape even 1inch of gap from the ground helps quite a bit.

 

[maninthemaze]

At some point a tipi maker is going to figure out a way to add upper vents (or ventilation) to enhance air flow and minimize condensation. It won't address all situations but will be a step in the right direction.

Didn't Robbie do a review on one?

Hekla 30 Firebox Demo - YouTube


Just my 2 cents and worth the price charged.

 

[maninthemaze]

Check out Mansfield Outdoors on page 12.

http://www.rokslide.com/forums/sleep-systems/66248-floorless-mid-shootout.html

Just my 2 cents and worth the price charged.

 

[William Hanson (live2hunt)]

How much off a weight penalty would you fellas be willing to sacrifice for ventilation? How much cost? Would you just want a large upper vent or lower vents to create draft? None of this is complicated, just time consuming and therefore adds cost and also adds weight.

Live2hunt custom shelters

 

[colonel00]

How much off a weight penalty would you fellas be willing to sacrifice for ventilation? How much cost? Would you just want a large upper vent or lower vents to create draft? None of this is complicated, just time consuming and therefore adds cost and also adds weight.

Live2hunt custom shelters

Tis an interesting question. I often see people that say they don't want cold drafts but that is what ventilation is in a single wall shelter. I think something that is missed often is to look at a typical 2-wall tent. The outside fly rarely comes down to the ground an often has a big gap from the ground. This allows the air to circulate between the inner nest and the outer fly. There is also plenty of condensation on the fly of a 2-wall tent but you don't notice it because of the inner nest (thus a liner in a floorless tent).

Anyway, I just think it's a catch 22 situation where too much ventilation and people will complain about it having cold drafts. Too little and you get condensation. If you are that worried about condensation, run a regular tent or pay for a liner (and hope it doesn't wet out).

I still don't know why Kifaru doesn't have at least a vent though. I love the Sawtooth but the lack of a single vent seems silly, especially if people pitch it down tight to the ground as it's "supposed" to be.

 

[Stid2677]

Tis an interesting question. I often see people that say they don't want cold drafts but that is what ventilation is in a single wall shelter. I think something that is missed often is to look at a typical 2-wall tent. The outside fly rarely comes down to the ground an often has a big gap from the ground. This allows the air to circulate between the inner nest and the outer fly. There is also plenty of condensation on the fly of a 2-wall tent but you don't notice it because of the inner nest (thus a liner in a floorless tent).

Anyway, I just think it's a catch 22 situation where too much ventilation and people will complain about it having cold drafts. Too little and you get condensation. If you are that worried about condensation, run a regular tent or pay for a liner (and hope it doesn't wet out).

I still don't know why Kifaru doesn't have at least a vent though. I love the Sawtooth but the lack of a single vent seems silly, especially if people pitch it down tight to the ground as it's "supposed" to be.

The sawtooth does have a vent,,, leave the top zipper down a bit and hold it open with the pulls that have the tension lock.

 

[colonel00]

The sawtooth does have a vent,,, leave the top zipper down a bit and hold it open with the pulls that have the tension lock.

Yeah, but that can let rain in as well. I see what you are saying but to me, a double zipper isn't a vent. It's just a way to vent the tent that doesn't have actual vents.

 

[Kevin Dill]

I agree with the last two comments. I often vent my Sawtooth by using the zipper and upper drawcords. On an 8-Man with 2 opposing doors I've been known to partially zip open (down) both doors and use sticks to prop things open for good cross ventilation. ANY additional ventilation helps clear out accumulated humidity, but I don't think it can be totally averted. Some type of upper vent which can be opened or closed (and maybe water-tight) would be a bonus. Nothing is ever going to eliminate the advantages of a double-wall shelter (be it a conventional tent or a tipi with a liner) in really bad weather.

It took me one near-disastrous caribou hunt to understand just how bad things can get during severe condensation. I experienced a really bad 7 day storm at altitude. The humidity probably never dropped below 90% and the weather was basically a tropical storm until it turned to snow. I had brought the liners for my Sawtooth but hadn't ever installed them. When the weather turned bad I was shocked at the amount of condensation and subsequent inside spray-rain I experienced. I ended up having to figure out and install the liners during a period of intense rain and 50 mph winds buffeting the tipi. It was unpleasant to a degree I can't fully explain. The winds were intense enough to raise the lower edges of the tipi and force plenty of 'ventilation', so no amount of venting was going to prevent condensation. The liners completely saved me from a total gear soaking disaster.

I also learned that a tightly staked tipi can only do so much to exclude wind around the bottom. I returned home and immediately sent my Sawtooth off to have sod flaps installed 360 degrees. I use moss or preferably stones to secure the sod flap and keep things tight. I just got back from 14 days in eastern Alaska (moose hunt) and never had any issues with wind, rain or excess condensation affecting my inside comfort. I believe I burned my stove 4 times in those days....mainly to warm/dry things a couple times during cold weather.

 

[Augustus46]

At some point a tipi maker is going to figure out a way to add upper vents (or ventilation) to enhance air flow and minimize condensation. It won't address all situations but will be a step in the right direction.

The GoLite tipi's were vented at the top. I had an SL3 and it had two vents at the peak. But I haven't seen any other tipi makers doing it.

 

[colonel00]

The GoLite tipi's were vented at the top. I had an SL3 and it had two vents at the peak. But I haven't seen any other tipi makers doing it.

Seek Outside does as well. At least my Cimarron had one.

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[rbljack]

I agree 100% with Mr Kevin,, the liner stays tied in my Sawtooth for all the above reasons.

Curious....does the sawtooth still fit in its original stuff sack with the liners tied in, or did you have to do something a bit different? I'm thinking about going this route. I just watched the video on the install of the liner, and its not something I would want to mess with each time I set it up. 18 ounces of additional weight (according to patricks video) for the liner set in case anyone was wondering how much added weight they add.

 

[Stid2677]

Curious....does the sawtooth still fit in its original stuff sack with the liners tied in, or did you have to do something a bit different? I'm thinking about going this route. I just watched the video on the install of the liner, and its not something I would want to mess with each time I set it up. 18 ounces of additional weight (according to patricks video) for the liner set in case anyone was wondering how much added weight they add.

Yes Sir,, tight fit, but I have no issue getting it all in there, so stays tied in. I never pack it like that in my pack,, I always loose stuff it in to fill any space and also keep other stuff dry. Always the first item out at camp anyway. Better than trying to find a spot for a giant lump.

 

[oldgoat]

Curious....does the sawtooth still fit in its original stuff sack with the liners tied in, or did you have to do something a bit different? I'm thinking about going this route. I just watched the video on the install of the liner, and its not something I would want to mess with each time I set it up. 18 ounces of additional weight (according to patricks video) for the liner set in case anyone was wondering how much added weight they add.

Well, I didn't actually try to stuff back in it's own pocket, I just stuffed it in my camp bag and didn't bother putting it away completely when we were just moving camp a couple miles. It very well might fit, but it will be a tight SOB d but it's also 2piece, so if you're solo, you could just go with it in one side off the shelter and let the other side drip a little, not sure if that's a good idea or not!