Colorado wilderness crowding

[lyle_destroys]

Everyone's tolerance level is different. I grew up fishing and hunting in areas where I saw no one for years, so my tolerance level has been put to the test for a few years now. I rarely fish anymore because of the crowds on the rivers, and I'm very selective where and when I hunt because of the crowds (both hunting and recreational).

At this point, I don't even have an elk tag. Not 100% sure what I'm doing yet. I might just spend the entire season helping others in draw units that I know well. Crowds ruin it for me. I don't even like camping around others.

Sounds like you need to move to alaska.

 

[MuleDeerMike]

I'm not going to further engage in the debate as to whether or not hunter numbers are in decline, the info is out there, it's all documented, if you choose to not believe it, then it is what it is, but I do have a few comments.

First, even though I didn't create a thread about it, last year I actually did return to a place where I had been 2 years previous, and spent 7 days little more than 3 miles from the trailhead, and never saw a soul. After about a mile, I didn't even see any human tracks. Anecdotal and not representative of the whole I know...but I like irony.

As for government protecting hunters for years to come, the problem with your theory is that game management is left to the states, so the federal mechanism you reference is not in play. Further I would point out that CA lost mountain lion hunting almost 30 years ago, and lost fur trapping yesterday. New Jersey bear hunters suffered a big blow last year, and other bear hunters around the country are under siege. Coyote hunters, and predator callers in general are also under attack. I get fairly regular updates from the New Mexico Trappers Assn about all the legal challenges they are forced to answer.

You are right, we probably aren't going to lose all of hunting in the next little bit, but those who would take it from us are well funded, passionate, active, and patient. They are playing the long game, and incrementally chipping away at our opportunity. If we let them build momentum unanswered, it's on us, and nobody else.

It's pretty clear the largest reduction of hunters is coming from the older generation that is dying off. And as someone pointed out, mostly in states like Pennsylvania and Michigan where in my understanding they are insanely overcrowded already. If hunter numbers decline a little bit in those states then will that be detrimental to hunting their, or will it be better for it? Seems like less pressure would be a positive in those extremely overcrowded states. As for money lost due to less license sales and less Pittman Robertson transactions, if we lost that older generation then will we be in such a detrimental spot for funding that hunting will actually be impacted negatively? Or do we already have more than enough money? To my understanding hunters spend $90 billion dollars annually and I believe that's more than Apple makes on their I phones and I pads, for reference. A lot of people are assuming that less hunters will be a bad thing without looking at the actual income vs expenses when it comes to wildlife conservation. Maybe we already have more than enough to keep things going smoothly for a long time. Answering that question would be a good starting point instead of just assuming we need more people hunting. As for state government vs federal, they are obviously very similar in where you have representatives in both rural and urban areas that battle head to head over wildlife management issues on a constant basis. They're fighting for their constituents lifestyles and what they believe their constituents want. I live in Washington and we see this all the time when it comes to wolves, the legislatures are ruthless going back and forth all the time with each other which usually keeps things somewhere around the middle ground most times. In fact, Washington is a good example. Hunting has gotten so bad here that we're finally starting to see the DFW make some preliminary moves to swing the pendulum back to the greater good of the deer and elk (and hunters) by looking at what they can do to better manage predators here. We got a significant change to the fall bear season this year that will allow more bear harvest and they're now looking at changing the rules/seasons for expanded opportunity on spring bear and cougar (spring bear is currently a draw system). Bear baiting and hound hunting were allowed during the general election over 20 years ago but things are starting to look up for us since so many hunters are fed up and getting involved with their reps. Seattle is about to lose their shit and I'm looking forward to it.

 

[RockinU]

It's pretty clear the largest reduction of hunters is coming from the older generation that is dying off. And as someone pointed out, mostly in states like Pennsylvania and Michigan where in my understanding they are insanely overcrowded already. If hunter numbers decline a little bit in those states then will that be detrimental to hunting their, or will it be better for it? Seems like less pressure would be a positive in those extremely overcrowded states. As for money lost due to less license sales and less Pittman Robertson transactions, if we lost that older generation then will we be in such a detrimental spot for funding that hunting will actually be impacted negatively? Or do we already have more than enough money? To my understanding hunters spend $90 billion dollars annually and I believe that's more than Apple makes on their I phones and I pads, for reference. A lot of people are assuming that less hunters will be a bad thing without looking at the actual income vs expenses when it comes to wildlife conservation. Maybe we already have more than enough to keep things going smoothly for a long time. Answering that question would be a good starting point instead of just assuming we need more people hunting. As for state government vs federal, they are obviously very similar in where you have representatives in both rural and urban areas that battle head to head over wildlife management issues on a constant basis. They're fighting for their constituents lifestyles and what they believe their constituents want. I live in Washington and we see this all the time when it comes to wolves, the legislatures are ruthless going back and forth all the time with each other which usually keeps things somewhere around the middle ground most times. In fact, Washington is a good example. Hunting has gotten so bad here that we're finally starting to see the DFW make some preliminary moves to swing the pendulum back to the greater good of the deer and elk (and hunters) by looking at what they can do to better manage predators here. We got a significant change to the fall bear season this year that will allow more bear harvest and they're now looking at changing the rules/seasons for expanded opportunity on spring bear and cougar (spring bear is currently a draw system). Bear baiting and hound hunting were allowed during the general election over 20 years ago but things are starting to look up for us since so many hunters are fed up and getting involved with their reps. Seattle is about to lose their shit and I'm looking forward to it.

It’s encouraging to hear that hunters are making their voices heard up there. We, as a larger group, need to do a better job supporting each other. I’m aware of, and involved with efforts that are regional to me, but am admittedly ignorant to the challenges y’all face up there. With the internet and the growing popularity of podcasts I’ve become somewhat more aware, but I could probably still do better.

 

[JG358]

Sounds like you need to move to alaska.

Heck, Alaska might still be a bit to crowded for Mike

 

[MuleDeerMike]

It’s encouraging to hear that hunters are making their voices heard up there. We, as a larger group, need to do a better job supporting each other. I’m aware of, and involved with efforts that are regional to me, but am admittedly ignorant to the challenges y’all face up there. With the internet and the growing popularity of podcasts I’ve become somewhat more aware, but I could probably still do better.

I agree, we all need to do better. The issue is finding the time to constantly babysit our elected officials and state DFW's when it's hard enough to find the time to just hunt.

 

[ELKhunter60]

Perspective is an interesting thing. As a public land Michigan Whitetail hunter the thought of a bunch of cars at a trailhead for a wilderness area doesn't bother me all that much. I hunted a 250 acre chunk of public land in west michigan last year. There were 23 cars parked in the parking lot when I got there. Sometimes we do what we gotta do to get out there.

must be Rogue River State Game area....think I saw you there

 

[MichaelO]

Here in the Midwest I used to have access to over 1k acres of forest spread out over a couple of properties. But owners die and property changes hands. Seems harder and more expensive than ever to get access. I’ve looked at leases but just can’t bring myself to do it. Seems like that’s the cause of crowding here anyway.

That being said I park next to 2-5 trucks at a trailhead for my local public land. A whopping 450 acres and I’ll happily park next to yours when I come to Colorado and Idaho next year. Your version of crowded doesn’t even come close to scaring off easterners,Quite the opposite.

 

[co_archer]

CO has been going downhill for the better part of the past decade, and it largely starts with the politics in Denver.

Don't get me wrong, it's a beautiful and often stunning state, but the taxes/cost of living/millennial mindset/liberal politics out of Denver is definitely impacting the entire state.

10 years ago you could have fished the South Platte river in peace nearly any time of day. Now it's absolute combat fly fishing and your elbow to elbow with every other guy in Denver by 7am.

While I don't believe the same will happen to hunting due to a myriad of reasons, the sheer population and number of people in the state at this point is definitely hurting. If you don't want pressure, you have to be willing to put in the work and hike where most people can't, or aren't willing to.

 

[String&stick]

I"m not going to look up state by state for you but a quick round of googling tells me that at the peak in 1982 Americans bought 28.3 million hunting licenses, and that last year they bought only 15.6 million.

If you are genuinely curious, the information is out there to be found.

You are misquoting information here.

In 1982, 16.75 million Americans bought 28.3 million lic., Tags, and stamps.

In 2019, 15.5 million people bought 35.9 million lic, tags, and stamps.

So in 37 years we lost 1.25 million license holders, but sold 7.6 million more license, tags, and stamps.

But in 1999 15.15 million people bought 33.27 licenses, tags, and stamps.

So. . . We grew numbers from 99 to 19. . . Us fish and wildlife numbers

 

[RockinU]

You are misquoting information here.

In 1982, 16.75 million Americans bought 28.3 million lic., Tags, and stamps.

In 2019, 15.5 million people bought 35.9 million lic, tags, and stamps.

So in 37 years we lost 1.25 million license holders, but sold 7.6 million more license, tags, and stamps.

But in 1999 15.15 million people bought 33.27 licenses, tags, and stamps.

So. . . We grew numbers from 99 to 19. . . Us fish and wildlife numbers

I actually corrected that mistake in a later post, and if you dig into the numbers, you will see that there is some conflict because at some point in the early 2000’s there was a change in reporting methodology that inflated the numbers somewhat from that point on. I haven’t been able to find what that change was, or how big the effect is, so I can’t really comment further.

 

[camping1601]

You know it's bad when I look forward to coming home to PA to get away from all the hunters.

 

[String&stick]

Scoot over boys here we come !

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My real question is are you double hitched with trailers? Or is there just another trailer in your driveway?

 

[IN_Varmntr]

Came home this week from my first time out west after elk. Colorado even. The area I hunted was more crowded this year than the previous years by far according to the guys I went with. Ran into a local gentleman as we were packing up who said the DOW is telling people to come to this area because they never see anyone there. Interesting.

30-40 guys on the mountain, some partying until 2AM, hooting and hollering, not all were there to elk hunt from what we're told by a few guys that were up in that area.

It also appears that many are jumping on the bandwagon of capitalizing off the popularity of elk hunting on the rise by throwing up cabins on private lands bordering public and providing hunting services. Kind of stems off the whole "fat guys can't throw a backpack on and climb the hill" mentality that could ultimately lead to more bodies on the mountain.

Interesting first year experience, and will definitely be back...to a different area.

 

[BrooksRanger]

Heck, Alaska might still be a bit to crowded for Mike

Alaska can seem pretty crowded sometimes unless you have access to a: boat, airplane, snow machine, or atv. Remember, it's big up here, but the game populations are small. I recommend moving to the Yukon or another Territory if you want to get really away from anyone.

 

[Phaseolus]

Hmm, I hunted a Colorado Wilderness a fw days ago and saw...no people. Steep, no trails, deadfall, distance.

 

[wjruss]

It's easy to see where people are comfortable. You can either be the one to chase the bite or find the bite. I understand everyone's capabilities are different and it's never fun to show up at "your spot" only to find that it's blown up (like most of "my" flyfishing spots in the eastern Sierras). Just means its time to get off the beaten path and remind myself these resources are here for everyone.

However, it seems the new wave of hunting/hunters has come about in a new way. Between the folks on social media, youtube, and other online hunting sources competing for eyes, there's no end to the perceived crowding issue. Because lets face it, elk hunting is SO HOT right now!

 

[sndmn11]

I get a chuckle when I see complaints of crowding in the same breath as saying you were into elk.

 

[Violent Hippie]

I hunted elk in CO last archery season and saw maybe 2 other hunters during the 10 or so days I hunted . The hunters I saw were approximately 1/2 mile from main trailhead and I went days without seeing a soul. Real great wilderness experience. Saw bulls and cows as well.

 

[Bbell12]

Hmm, I hunted a Colorado Wilderness a fw days ago and saw...no people. Steep, no trails, deadfall, distance.

Exact same experience here. It’s amazing what happens when you go to the thickest, nastiest country in the unit.


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[Newtosavage]

A few of these responses are just one "Get off my lawn!" comment short of full curmudgeon. LOL