Cold bore zero versus (very) Hot bore zero “test”

[nm.otter]

to extend barrel life they use a little battery powered air duster with a hose and a nozzle that fits in your chamber. They just run them when they check targets to cool everything down from the inside. I’m interested in that idea

Someone suggested these here last year so I bought one. After adding a brass hose barb and a bit of tubing, it gets the job done.

 

[journeyman713]

 

[Hurley88]

I dont think anyone is going to debate shooting a lot with a piping hot barrel is going to result in less barrel life than slow firing and never letting a barrel get hot as has been historically advised for hunting rifles.

True 30 shot strings would result in more mirage than i'd want to deal with before getting to 30 with a suppressed hunting weight rifle/can.

Oh yeah. Cardboard was used.

 

[Hurley88]

Sorry guys I’ll not detail the thread further. I had three of those barrels so they got picked for most of my testing. Didn’t really have a purpose for the third so it just got put in the rotation to test for barrel life. If she goes up into 2000-2500, it’ll impact my shooting for sure. But we’ll see.

 

[Macintosh]

Sorry guys I’ll not detail the thread further. I had three of those barrels so they got picked for most of my testing. Didn’t really have a purpose for the third so it just got put in the rotation to test for barrel life. If she goes up into 2000-2500, it’ll impact my shooting for sure. But we’ll see.

It kind of seems like one of the most ON-topic tangents yet. My impression just from forum osmosis is that 2000+ rounds is quite good barrel life for a 243, but also probably depends on bullet and powder used. But it seems like a legit “thing”. I think I’d be more likely to pick a cartridge with an eye toward barrel life, than I would let a given barrel life tell me how to shoot. If the performance is something important, it seems like its just the cost of doing business at least to a degree.

NOT DIRECTED AT ANYONE IN PARTICULAR: What it makes me think though, is that it seems people have this impression that the “high round count groups crowd” shoots 20 or 30 rounds as fast as they can, EVERY time they pull the trigger. Which I dont think is true. I think the reality is that people who shoot a lot, shoot a lot. Some of it (getting to know a gun and load, zeroing, etc) is with various higher round count groups. But outside of zeroing and basic baseline and dope, the majority of shots can still be single shots or smallish groups. I just dont think its an either/or thing, it’s both.

 

[Hurley88]

It kind of seems like one of the most ON-topic tangents yet. My impression just from forum osmosis is that 2000+ rounds is quite good barrel life for a 243, but also probably depends on bullet and powder used. But it seems like a legit “thing”. I think I’d be more likely to pick a cartridge with an eye toward barrel life, than I would let a given barrel life tell me how to shoot. If the performance is something important, it seems like its just the cost of doing business at least to a degree.

NOT DIRECTED AT ANYONE IN PARTICULAR: What it makes me think though, is that it seems people have this impression that the “high round count groups crowd” shoots 20 or 30 rounds as fast as they can, EVERY time they pull the trigger. Which I dont think is true. I think the reality is that people who shoot a lot, shoot a lot. Some of it (getting to know a gun and load, zeroing, etc) is with various higher round count groups. But outside of zeroing and basic baseline and dope, the majority of shots can still be single shots or smallish groups. I just dont think its an either/or thing, it’s both.

Oh no you’re dead on; most often I shoot 5-8 shots before cooling just in general. For zero/load dev I use four 5-shot groups and make a composite with OnTarget. Mostly bc I can actually mark each hole doing it that way.

I treated those 243 barrels like trash bc I wanted to see what would happen. Wanted to see how mirage affected groups, whether hot barrels wandered, whether cleaning affected barrel life, etc.

One lasted 1400(ish), the next 1700(ish) without cleaning, although that data is skewed bc both used the same bullet and different powders. To compound the matter, I didn’t keep a log of which shot long stings or how many times I did it. And worse yet, this third barrel is using another powder yet again.
In general I just want to see how much longer the barrel lasts versus the first two. Why not, better than throwing the components in the trash, not using them for anything else.

But no, I don’t make regular habit of sitting down and shooting 30-shot strings. But I did do it & similar things quite a bit with those two barrels.

 

[Formidilosus]

Was checking POI shifts using vastly different holds, but 5 rounds on another target, then10 rounds rapid in this one, then 5 more on this one after 10 rounds on another target. The barrel and can were extremely hot.

 

[WyldGoose]

I shoot almost everyday and my range sessions are usually limited to around an hour and a half, only because I go during our baby’s nap time. I don’t waste time letting my barrel cool down and typically shoot around 60 rounds +/-. Only “cooling” breaks are when I’m reloading mags.
Barrel gets way hot but it shoots the same regardless. Only thing I’ve observed that opens up groups is when there’s no breeze to knock down mirage.
This group(prone off pack) is rapid fire and at least 16 rounds since I show up with a 4rd & two 6rd mags ready to go. Might be 20 rds.

 

[Chris in TN]

Someone suggested these here last year so I bought one. After adding a brass hose barb and a bit of tubing, it gets the job done.

I often shoot from my barn window. I have a deep freezer in my barn.

I don't usually even think about barrel heat, unless shooting muzzleloaders with sabots in summertime, when you have to keep the barrel cool or ruin the sabots.

I may or may not have been caught stuffing a muzzleloader into the deep freezer to cool it down during the summer.

As for hot barrels in general, here's the thing: I completely grasp the statistical value of 10+ round groups, but I also grasp that ammo costs money and a guy who's hunting almost 100% within 300 yards can live with a single click worth of statistical zero (or composite cone of fire) uncertainty. I'm not sure exactly where that single-click level of certainty is breached (I'm guessing 5-7 shots will usually get you within a single click of zero, I haven't ran the math and am not sure I could) but from a personal skill standpoint, on a budget (a whole, whole lot of the discussion on this forum seems to assume an unlimited supply of ammo, which I do not have - I can generally afford all the .22lr I can shoot but not all the centerfire ammo my kids could burn up), I generally don't put much value on high-volume practice precisely because I believe that building and locking in to a field position is the harder part of the shot. Once you have a solid position, certainly there's value in trigger repetition, but given a choice, if I had, say, 100 rounds to make someone a halfway competent shooter, I'd have them getting into position 50x and shooting 2 shots per position, instead of having them get into position 10x and shooting 10 shots per position. Put another way I believe there's a diminishing marginal value in subsequent shots once you've got into a position and the greatest value is had by practicing the position, not the trigger break. Or, maybe we should report how many times we built a position per range trip, not how many shots we fired. I mean, yeah, that turns into an aerobic exercise, and that means work and sweat. I get that. Shooting is supposed to be fun and what I'm proposing turns it into armed jumping jacks. I won't pretend to know what the optimum ratio of shots per position-build is, but I do believe it's way the heck less than 30.

YMMV. I'm not the expert here.

 

[Macintosh]

I often shoot from my barn window. I have a deep freezer in my barn.

I don't usually even think about barrel heat, unless shooting muzzleloaders with sabots in summertime, when you have to keep the barrel cool or ruin the sabots.

I may or may not have been caught stuffing a muzzleloader into the deep freezer to cool it down during the summer.

As for hot barrels in general, here's the thing: I completely grasp the statistical value of 10+ round groups, but I also grasp that ammo costs money and a guy who's hunting almost 100% within 300 yards can live with a single click worth of statistical zero (or composite cone of fire) uncertainty. I'm not sure exactly where that single-click level of certainty is breached (I'm guessing 5-7 shots will usually get you within a single click of zero, I haven't ran the math and am not sure I could) but from a personal skill standpoint, on a budget (a whole, whole lot of the discussion on this forum seems to assume an unlimited supply of ammo, which I do not have - I can generally afford all the .22lr I can shoot but not all the centerfire ammo my kids could burn up), I generally don't put much value on high-volume practice precisely because I believe that building and locking in to a field position is the harder part of the shot. Once you have a solid position, certainly there's value in trigger repetition, but given a choice, if I had, say, 100 rounds to make someone a halfway competent shooter, I'd have them getting into position 50x and shooting 2 shots per position, instead of having them get into position 10x and shooting 10 shots per position. Put another way I believe there's a diminishing marginal value in subsequent shots once you've got into a position and the greatest value is had by practicing the position, not the trigger break. Or, maybe we should report how many times we built a position per range trip, not how many shots we fired. I mean, yeah, that turns into an aerobic exercise, and that means work and sweat. I get that. Shooting is supposed to be fun and what I'm proposing turns it into armed jumping jacks. I won't pretend to know what the optimum ratio of shots per position-build is, but I do believe it's way the heck less than 30.

YMMV. I'm not the expert here.

This is PRECISELY what I was suggesting above. It’s entirely normal to me to set up a rifle, shoot a big group to establish the extreme spread for dispersion, zero it off a 10 round group, and then NOT shoot big groups unless Im truing a ballistic app, moving to a new lot of ammo or troubleshooting a problem.

Once I know the extreme dispersion, 90% of my zero checks are 3-5 rounds (is it within the extreme spread around my poa? If so its zeroed). unless theres a glaring issue or I notice a trend over multiple range sessions. I will then proceed to practice positions with one shot fired per position. Maybe one shot and a fast followup. I’ll usually repeat the excercise several times in a session, but Im practicing the position, because I already have the info I need to evaluate one or a couple shots. I also do dry-fire practice, although its nice to have actual confirmation. If Im practicing offhand it’s slow fire. And I often practice with my 22 as well.

In any case, this is exactly what I meant by “it’s not an either/or, it’s both”.

 

[Marbles]

I often shoot from my barn window. I have a deep freezer in my barn.

I don't usually even think about barrel heat, unless shooting muzzleloaders with sabots in summertime, when you have to keep the barrel cool or ruin the sabots.

I may or may not have been caught stuffing a muzzleloader into the deep freezer to cool it down during the summer.

As for hot barrels in general, here's the thing: I completely grasp the statistical value of 10+ round groups, but I also grasp that ammo costs money and a guy who's hunting almost 100% within 300 yards can live with a single click worth of statistical zero (or composite cone of fire) uncertainty. I'm not sure exactly where that single-click level of certainty is breached (I'm guessing 5-7 shots will usually get you within a single click of zero, I haven't ran the math and am not sure I could) but from a personal skill standpoint, on a budget (a whole, whole lot of the discussion on this forum seems to assume an unlimited supply of ammo, which I do not have - I can generally afford all the .22lr I can shoot but not all the centerfire ammo my kids could burn up), I generally don't put much value on high-volume practice precisely because I believe that building and locking in to a field position is the harder part of the shot. Once you have a solid position, certainly there's value in trigger repetition, but given a choice, if I had, say, 100 rounds to make someone a halfway competent shooter, I'd have them getting into position 50x and shooting 2 shots per position, instead of having them get into position 10x and shooting 10 shots per position. Put another way I believe there's a diminishing marginal value in subsequent shots once you've got into a position and the greatest value is had by practicing the position, not the trigger break. Or, maybe we should report how many times we built a position per range trip, not how many shots we fired. I mean, yeah, that turns into an aerobic exercise, and that means work and sweat. I get that. Shooting is supposed to be fun and what I'm proposing turns it into armed jumping jacks. I won't pretend to know what the optimum ratio of shots per position-build is, but I do believe it's way the heck less than 30.

YMMV. I'm not the expert here.

It takes seconds to break and then build a position. Last range trip I broke position every 2-3 rounds and shot prone, seated unsupported, and off hand. Barrel still got hot enough to scorch my gloves.

71 rounds in about an hour, that includes fiddling with the kestrel and Garmin for velocity data, collecting my brass, and stoking the fire in the range hut so I could warm my hands.

No one has to practice like that, but time is my most limiting factor. Followed by money (else I would have brought my 223 as well and burned 2-300 rounds in 2 hours).

 

[Chris in TN]

This is PRECISELY what I was suggesting above. It’s entirely normal to me to set up a rifle, shoot a big group to establish the extreme spread for dispersion, zero it off a 10 round group, and then NOT shoot big groups unless Im truing a ballistic app, moving to a new lot of ammo or troubleshooting a problem.

Once I know the extreme dispersion, 90% of my zero checks are 3-5 rounds (is it within the extreme spread around my poa? If so its zeroed). unless theres a glaring issue or I notice a trend over multiple range sessions. I will then proceed to practice positions with one shot fired per position. Maybe one shot and a fast followup. I’ll usually repeat the excercise several times in a session, but Im practicing the position, because I already have the info I need to evaluate one or a couple shots. I also do dry-fire practice, although its nice to have actual confirmation. If Im practicing offhand it’s slow fire. And I often practice with my 22 as well.

In any case, this is exactly what I meant by “it’s not an either/or, it’s both”.

We're tracking here for sure.

In 2020 there was a component shortage and I couldn't get the bullets or powder I wanted at any price. For a couple months I went to the range 2x/week with 2 or 3 rounds of ammo, fired the range-mandated one shot at 100 yards to verify that I had no major zero issues, then fired one practice shot, sometimes 2, at the 300 or 500 yard targets, from field positions, not the bench. I did a lot of dry fire practice at home. When my shot came that fall the herd was running away from my dad's shot. They stopped while I was getting behind the rifle (dad shot his cow with my rifle at ~260) and one cow stepped clear at 387 yards and I broke the trigger as soon as I was settled on her lungs - not where I wanted to be, but a shot I was confident in and I knew I could break in the time offered. I pinwheeled her and she was down within 75 yards and from the time of my dad's shot to the time I broke mine was perhaps 10 seconds - with the same rifle. I know 387 isn't a long shot by the standards here but I killed her fast and I told the guide precisely where we'd find the hole, and that's where it was. He said he'd seen guys that season blow through most of a box of ammo and after we got those cows loaded we spent the rest of the morning helping the neighbors look for a cow they'd wounded that morning. I'm not telling that story to brag, I'm simply saying that sound practice methods can pay off without a large ammo budget. Yes, I'd prefer to shoot more shots, but it's the positional practice that is the biggest hurdle.

 

[Macintosh]

Sure. Reps matter, but we’re saying the same thing more or less.

The point I want to repeatedly beat into submission, is that none of that makes larger groups used to establish a zero and info about a rifle, any less useful. My practice is simply more valuable and has fewer question marks when its based off a better zero and better info, and it makes it far easier to troubleshoot any issues with that info already in hand. Being able to establish that efficiently (ie with a hot barrel as opposed to spending hours or days doing so) is still a noticeable convenience that I appreciate. At the end of the day I think it results in spending more of my ammo budget and limited range time on actual practice that has a tangible benefit to me.

 

[Formidilosus]

I often shoot from my barn window. I have a deep freezer in my barn.

I don't usually even think about barrel heat, unless shooting muzzleloaders with sabots in summertime, when you have to keep the barrel cool or ruin the sabots.

I may or may not have been caught stuffing a muzzleloader into the deep freezer to cool it down during the summer.

Just pour water on hot barrels to cool.

As for hot barrels in general, here's the thing: I completely grasp the statistical value of 10+ round groups, but I also grasp that ammo costs money and a guy who's hunting almost 100% within 300 yards can live with a single click worth of statistical zero (or composite cone of fire) uncertainty. I'm not sure exactly where that single-click level of certainty is breached (I'm guessing 5-7 shots will usually get you within a single click of zero,

No, 5-7 rounds does not get the above average rifle within a single click. 20 shots in a group does that.

If you took all the “my rifle is half MOA all day long” guns, and put them in a Wiseman return to battery fixture and shot them in a tunnel- the average 95% come would be 2 to 2.5 MOA.

I haven't ran the math and am not sure I could) but from a personal skill standpoint, on a budget (a whole, whole lot of the discussion on this forum seems to assume an unlimited supply of ammo, which I do not have - I can generally afford all the .22lr I can shoot but not all the centerfire ammo my kids could burn up), I generally don't put much value on high-volume practice precisely because I believe that building and locking in to a field position is the harder part of the shot. Once you have a solid position, certainly there's value in trigger repetition, but given a choice, if I had, say, 100 rounds to make someone a halfway competent shooter, I'd have them getting into position 50x and shooting 2 shots per position, instead of having them get into position 10x and shooting 10 shots per position. Put another way I believe there's a diminishing marginal value in subsequent shots once you've got into a position and the greatest value is had by practicing the position, not the trigger break. Or, maybe we should report how many times we built a position per range trip, not how many shots we fired. I mean, yeah, that turns into an aerobic exercise, and that means work and sweat. I get that. Shooting is supposed to be fun and what I'm proposing turns it into armed jumping jacks. I won't pretend to know what the optimum ratio of shots per position-build is, but I do believe it's way the heck less than 30.

YMMV. I'm not the expert here.

You keep conflicting high shot groups sizes to prove a gun, with “all of them as fast as possible”. That is not what needs to, or has to happen.

 

[Shraggs]

Just pour water on hot barrels to cool.





No, 5-7 rounds does not get the above average rifle within a single click. 20 shots in a group does that.

If you took all the “my rifle is half MOA all day long” guns, and put them in a Wiseman return to battery fixture and shot them in a tunnel- the average 95% come would be 2 to 2.5 MOA.






You keep conflicting high shot groups sizes to prove a gun, with “all of them as fast as possible”. That is not what needs to, or has to happen.

Pouring water include tatanium or aluminum suppressor?

 

[Formidilosus]

Pouring water include tatanium or aluminum suppressor?

Yeah. As long as it isn’t glowing, it’s fine.

 

[Shraggs]

Yeah. As long as it isn’t glowing, it’s fine.

LS wild cover kinda hides that - don’t believe I’d ever get glowing. Mostly strings of full mag, change position and continue. Sorry for dumb but pour over cover too?

 

[Formidilosus]

LS wild cover kinda hides that - don’t believe I’d ever get glowing. Mostly strings of full mag, change position and continue. Sorry for dumb but pour over cover too?

No, I don’t use covers- even the LS Wild. I hate them, like a floppy sock on the gun.

 

[Gstew1930]

I shoot almost everyday and my range sessions are usually limited to around an hour and a half, only because I go during our baby’s nap time. I don’t waste time letting my barrel cool down and typically shoot around 60 rounds +/-. Only “cooling” breaks are when I’m reloading mags.
Barrel gets way hot but it shoots the same regardless. Only thing I’ve observed that opens up groups is when there’s no breeze to knock down mirage.
This group(prone off pack) is rapid fire and at least 16 rounds since I show up with a 4rd & two 6rd mags ready to go. Might be 20 rds.

You go shoot during your baby's nap? I prefer to sit in silence & stare at the wall

 

[WyldGoose]

You go shoot during your baby's nap? I prefer to sit in silence & stare at the wall

Truth be told, I don’t know what I’m supposed to do. I’m in my mid 40’s and it’s our first. I’m probably doing it wrong.