Change from Fixed Broadheads

[S.Clancy]

My set up is fine. I got one of those new Matthews and I shoot 30.5" and 70#. What I'm thinking about is decreasing my penetration potential by adding a bleeder or shooting a wide blade broadhead.

To get a pass through on the shoulder knuckle, I believe I'd need an african dangerous game type set-up... 1000+ grains with a grizzly Stik ashby head. I'm not doing that. So, I'm considering increasing the tissue damage potential i.e. bleeder and or wide head.

To get a pass-thru on the "knuckle" you need a gun.

As far as shooting a bigger broadhead, I am all for shooting big expandable with a setup like yours.

 

[roosiebull]

I just got back from my archery trip this year and unfortunately, I made a bad shot on a bull and did not recover. I shot too close behind the shoulder, quartering away and I think I only got 1 lung. I have been rethinking everything about my set up and other than not making a bad shot, I am thinking about tinkering with my arrow set-up. As a traditional guy I have always leaned toward the heavy-arrow cut-on-contact SB side of the spectrum. On my componud, I currently shoot an Iron will broadhead. While I could never swing to the other side of the spectrum and shoot an expandable, I am thinking about shooting a wider broadhead or adding a bleeder blade.

Can you guys share some experiences of bleeders or wide single bevels that you have had? Pros and cons?

Why would you want a wide head to be a single bevel? I do not understand why they even make them in concept, and they are terrible to pull from a target

I do like the 150gr kudu (1.4” wide and you can get them with a bleeder) but I don’t shoot them anymore because they are single bevel and the cons outweigh the pros

The GK xl is probably my favorite head in general, they are well built, very sharp out of the pack and easy to sharpen, forgiving, and not very loud in flight for what they are

The evolution Jekyll wyde is another that I think I’ll like, but they have a little more hiss, but that has never been a concern of mine with elk (or anything)

I killed a couple bulls with the 1.5” anarchy when they came out years ago, but they sucked to get out of targets so bad I just quit using them…. That’s a theme with me

I have killed several bulls with single bevels and seen several more, but have not seen anything particularly special about their performance, and I just don’t know what the argument is for wide single bevel heads, they are better suited as double bevels imo

I would pretty much shoot kudu exclusively if they sharpened the other side of the blade

I think single bevels are popular based on mainly snake oil and manufacturers love it because they are popular and cheaper to make not having to sharpen both sides

I would gladly pay the extra sharpening fee to turn many single bevels into double, and bleeders on single bevels… haha, marketing is effective I guess

 

[Bamf_Pa]

Archery hunting is a game of inches sometimes and I will never tell another hunter what to do or shoot. I have the same specs 70lb 30.5 inches I shoot a 446 grain arrow. That said since expandable heads got legalized here the success rate at least in my group of elk hunters has gone up. I killed my first elk with expandable heads this year. It was a small cow but 3 branched bulls were killed 2 with 450ish grain arrows tipped with sevrs both pass threes the other bull was a kudu tipped 550 grain arrow. It hit forward but came out the throat blood trail was great. I killed mine with a grim reaper follow up shot with a Hyde hybrid. She did not go more than 40 yards blood loss was tremendous the grim reaper looked like I threw a hatchet through her. The Hyde had a fixed head entrance and an almost 3 inch exit. Both flew great the Hyde needed a bit of a rest adjustment I’m not going back to fixed heads or heavy arrows again. Give me a 295 fps hole opening mid weight set up that will clear branches, give me a buffer on in between yardages and I’ll not hunt 10 ring hearts and be pleased with an 8 ring lungs.

 

[Beendare]

I mainly am thinking about if I had had a larger cutting broadhead it increases your chances of causing fatal artery hemorrhaging in the lung I did hit.

One lung on an elk is almost always a lost animal....no matter how big the BH.

After all of the elk I've seen shot with an arrow I will always elect for a BH with the best penetration.

I have heard of 6 bulls shot and lost...and a few difficult recoveries just this year. I'm sure all were poor shot locations....but is it a coincidence that ALL were with mech BH's? Maybe....

I have more detailed info to back up my opinion [though its not going to change the died in the wool mech head guys minds]

......like the one bull shot with a mech head that only got 5" of penetration? Now known due to a rifle hunter killing him a week later. Would a strong over penetrating BH design have killed that bull? Maybe.

 

[wapitibob]

You likely got one lung and liver, not much for arteries at the back of the lungs.

I've shot a 2 blade head only one time, the old Carbon Express F-15 with dual bleeder blades. Guys laughed at them on forums, said they were a gimmick. I can tell you from 1st hand experience those dual bleeders cut "flaps" on each side just like the pictures showed. That bull bled like a stuck pig and I watched him fall. The head zipped thru him and never slowed down. That would be the only 2 blade I would shoot after seeing those results.

 

[PSmit21]

flight on the heavy arrow single bevels is great, I am a firm believer of carrying momentum through the shot and the right foc to get perfect arrow flight. Where I think it falls short is definitely the blood trails. Thats really two blades in general fixed or mechanical. The flat cuts just don’t seem to bleed as well in my experience.

If you are worrying about adding lifting surface to your broadheads (valid concern) I have had good luck with vented broadheads flying much more like field points. I know a lot of companies make vented single bevels with bleeders.

 

[dallas.kc]

flight on the heavy arrow single bevels is great, I am a firm believer of carrying momentum through the shot and the right foc to get perfect arrow flight. Where I think it falls short is definitely the blood trails. Thats really two blades in general fixed or mechanical. The flat cuts just don’t seem to bleed as well in my experience.

If you are worrying about adding lifting surface to your broadheads (valid concern) I have had good luck with vented broadheads flying much more like field points. I know a lot of companies make vented single bevels with bleeders.

Definitely agree with the blood trails on 2 blade heads. I think 2 blades with bleeders or 3 blades offer a nice combination of both. Been really happy with the RMS/VPA heads as far as penetration and blood trails. If this will work, this is a video of a does I heart shot without a pass through (hit the offside leg and came out). Notice the distance she still went…animals are just tough as nails.

Dropbox

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[dallas.kc]

Dropbox

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[dallas.kc]

Ahh not sure if that’s going to work or not, essentially tons of blood and she still with 90-100 yards lol


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[doc holiday13]

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I have killed several bulls with single bevels and seen several more, but have not seen anything particularly special about their performance, and I just don’t know what the argument is for wide single bevel heads, they are better suited as double bevels imo
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I think single bevels are popular based on mainly snake oil and manufacturers love it because they are popular and cheaper to make not having to sharpen both sides
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I've killed 2 deer now with single bevels and the wound entrance/exit is fairly big almost looks like a hour glass. Based on that I can see how it could make a difference over the course of a long track job (aka bad shot). Of the 2 deer I've shot, both have dropped within 30-40 yards

But to your point, I believe it takes more arrow force for a SB to push through and people shooting slower bows should use a DB head

 

[GreggB]

I'll be the Grinch that stole Christmas for fixed head bowhunters.. Mechanicals win the recovery rate battle.

Deer Recovery Rates: Mechanical vs. Fixed-Blade Broadheads

Will you find your deer after the shot this season? Here's a look at the deer recovery rates when comparing fixed blades vs. mechanicals.

www.bowhunting.com

 

[Idaboy]

I'll be the Grinch that stole Christmas for fixed head bowhunters.. Mechanicals win the recovery rate battle.

Deer Recovery Rates: Mechanical vs. Fixed-Blade Broadheads

Will you find your deer after the shot this season? Here's a look at the deer recovery rates when comparing fixed blades vs. mechanicals.

www.bowhunting.com

^^^^^elk and deer is a completely different discussion, so while that is an interesting article, I'm focused on elk, as OP brought up.

It's a tough debate. Agree with most on thread and valid points on both sides.

Placement, placement placement....and shot angle, shot angle, shot angle.....

There are just too many variables where you could make a case for either on certain elk situations. Guys want an arrow set up to blast through shoulder and that is just not realistic IMO....if your going for distance and shoot 290fps with fixed blade to 80yds you are asking for problems. You have to set your own goals and own limits.

For people "harvesting more" with mech, is the blade doing that much better? Would need to know distance. You could argue that forgiveness of arrow flight/tune, is better so guys are shooting more accurately....again just too many variables.

Rib deflection is a real issue, I don't know mech or fixed perform better there.

Total blade cutting surface definitely a factor BUT you need penetration or pass through. Not sure about the "paralell an artery" theory, but I do shoot a 4 blade head.

I have considered having a mech in quiver for a long follow up shot on a bull I've already hit

To OP, experiment, but shoot what you feel you can shoot the most accurately AND have confidence in it.

I'm sticking with 7gr/lb draw wt arrow and fixed blade, 270-280fps

 

[Marble]

Ha. false. Go back and look at what I said.



My arrow set up didn't fail, as I stated it was a bad shot. You, in fact, didn't offer any experience using anything I was asking about. You just erroneously asserted I need more penetration. Even though I had 22" of penetration and impacted the shoulder knuckle on the opposite side. A 700 gr arrow wouldn't have done squat to change that.

My question was about trading off the excess penetration in order to increase tissue damage and what experiences people could share for or against that thought.

I do the think there is anything wrong with your set up. I would not change it at all.

Question, you said you were shooting IW heads, dont they have bleeders already?

I made bad shot this year as well. I cow called and atop a bull on high alert at 48 yards. I held my 50 pin at the ehart level. Arrow somewhere I the spine, got about 7" of penetration. I think my lost animal was a combination of my bad shot and the animal jumping the string.

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[Jbehredt]

I’ve used magnus black hornets with and without the bleeder on a couple animals. The additional cut of the bleeders has impressed me.

 

[HunterGatherer]

When I switched from shooting 3 blades to 2 blades, I started getting more pass throughs on bull elk, but less of a blood trail. Sometimes I didn’t get good blood trails with 3 blades either though. Every elk that was well hit was dead inside of 100yds, regardless of the number of blades or blade width or size of the blood trails.
I’ve learned how to track animals without a blood trail and still find them. Blood leaking out of the elk isn’t what kills it, it’s loss of blood pressure through internal hemorrhaging. You don’t need a hatchet would and a river of blood to kill and recover an elk. .

I just can’t imagine how 1/16” or even 1/8” larger cut is going to make or break a shot. By the same logic that the wider head might cut something extra it could also catch a rib or a scapula more easily, losing KE or possibly deflecting…
Sorry, I guess I’m still one of the “penetration is king” guys. A bad hit is rarely turned into a good hit by the choice of broad head.

For reference, I’m currently shooting Kudu 125s, no bleeder. Last 3 bulls were all pass throughs with weak blood trails and dead bulls nearby.

 

[doc holiday13]

When I switched from shooting 3 blades to 2 blades, I started getting more pass throughs on bull elk, but less of a blood trail. Sometimes I didn’t get good blood trails with 3 blades either though. Every elk that was well hit was dead inside of 100yds, regardless of the number of blades or blade width or size of the blood trails.
I’ve learned how to track animals without a blood trail and still find them. Blood leaking out of the elk isn’t what kills it, it’s loss of blood pressure through internal hemorrhaging. You don’t need a hatchet would and a river of blood to kill and recover an elk. .

I just can’t imagine how 1/16” or even 1/8” larger cut is going to make or break a shot. By the same logic that the wider head might cut something extra it could also catch a rib or a scapula more easily, losing KE or possibly deflecting…
Sorry, I guess I’m still one of the “penetration is king” guys. A bad hit is rarely turned into a good hit by the choice of broad head.

For reference, I’m currently shooting Kudu 125s, no bleeder. Last 3 bulls were all pass throughs with weak blood trails and dead bulls nearby.

All good points. In the defense of an extra 1/16 or 1/8" of cut, as long as that extra length is causing damage and one is not sacrificing accuracy get have it, I'm all for it. Its near impossible to quantify how much of a difference it makes but more cutting surface is gonna be better(within reason).

2 holes in an animal are certainly better than only 1. Of all my arrow kills I will say that a good shot always yields the animal falling within 50 yards regardless of 1 or 2 holes. My only exception one deer that died while running and rolled off the hilltop i was on. I think that deer made it 150 yards and I found it while carrying out my other deer and I've been very fortunate with that.

 

[doc holiday13]

I'll be the Grinch that stole Christmas for fixed head bowhunters.. Mechanicals win the recovery rate battle.

Deer Recovery Rates: Mechanical vs. Fixed-Blade Broadheads

Will you find your deer after the shot this season? Here's a look at the deer recovery rates when comparing fixed blades vs. mechanicals.

www.bowhunting.com

I'll be a grinch and say that the comparison is not great. Look at the data pool. Fixed blade reporting over 1K reports. The Mech has a reporting pool of 255... So like 4x more data on fixed blades. I think the data would be be closer in percentage with a larger data pool for mech blades. I will concede that the mech blades would likely still be ahead because most people will miss towards the rear of the deer and not the front. That right there is how the mech blade wins out because the cuts are generally 3/4"-1" bigger in diameter so more damage. However fixed blades tend to win out when the shot is further forward into teh scapula

 

[Beendare]

My problem with these studies:

The hunters ability, shooting skill and the attention to detail on how he sets up the bow matters more than the broadhead.
So many bowhunters with arrows that wobble, no BH tuning, etc

EDIT; A buddy sent me a video showing terrible penetration from what looked to be a perfect shot with a highly publicized wide cut Mech head from a 75# Lift. It would have been a dead bull guaranteed with a decent fixed head.

I realize its not going to change anyones mind....and I should probably just stay silent and let guys do as they will but my opinion stands on these heads.....