Carter Honey vs. Honey Do - Thoughts/Experiences?

[Neil B]

Hi Guys,

My name is Neil....been lurking and reading for awhile. First post.

I am looking for thoughts or advice on Carter's Honey and Honey Do releases. This will be my first true hinge ( have a Scott Longhorn Hex...but I haven't given it much time). My shooting is going downhill fast due to target panic, and instead of dancing around the problem, I am going to try to face it head on, as I go into my offseason.

I previously shot a Scott wrist strap, then transitioned to a Tru Ball Pro Diamond (lots of trigger travel but cheap). For awhile, I shot the best I ever had. By touching my index finger to my thumb, and crunching my hand, I was able to get away from punching and flinching etc. That lasted approx. 6-9 months until I learned to punch my thumb trigger. I have so much bad muscle memory I can't just will it away and need to make a dramatic change. Basically need to relearn my shot sequence.

I read on The Mule Deer Project that Darin set Cindy up with a Honey from the get go, and was hoping they, (or any other Honey/Honey Do shooters) could offer their thoughts or experiences.

Am I correct in thinking either the Honey or Honey Do would be a good hinge to learn on, and then do the majority of my shooting with? Ultimately, I think I'd like to hunt with a quality thumb trigger... But have to get over the target panic hump first.

I like the idea of a safety, but does anyone have any preference between the way the two operate? I'm leaning towards a Honey Do, with the thinking that pushing the safety forward while at anchor on a Honey might make me jumpy? Faulty thinking?

Cindy, if you happen to see this, how was your experience with the Honey? I think you mentioned you had gone from traditional right to a hinge. What do you think of the release? Any thoughts/opinions on it, or learning to shoot it?

Any advice or thoughts on these releases, or transitioning to hinge/ back tension is greatly appreciate. I'm pretty close to hurling my CPXL into the nearest pond.

Thanks,
Neil

 

[RosinBag]

A hinge is not a cure all to target panic, but will certainly help get you started. I have seen plenty fire a hinge because of target panic, it just takes a conscious thought and flick if the wrist and it will go.

I would also shoot one release for everything. Not a practice one and hunting one. Target Panic is a mental issue, not physical, so it can be cured with any release and the correct training plan.

As for the Carter Honeys, they are just two of a family of good releases available. How the fit your hand and how your hand/release fit your face is to be considered as well.

If Darrin doesn't see this, shoot him a PM. He is extreme knowledgeable in most archery technical questions.

 

[Neil B]

Hi RosinBag,

Thanks for the reply. Yea I'm having a hard time coming up with a effective means of dealing with my target panic. I tend to freeze just above my spot, and either shoot high (when I know my pin is high), or try to drive my pin by and punch my trigger. I've been going back and forth between putting my thumb on my trigger as soon as I hit anchor, and trying to place my thumb on my trigger once I've started to float on spot. If I put my thumb on as soon as I hit anchor, it creates anxiety as I settle my pin down. But if I try to rotate my thumb on once I'm on spot, then I just smack the trigger. None of which are conducive to good shooting.

I've been reading all of John Dudley's articles. I think I understand what I want to....it's just the implementation that's frustrating. I know I need to add 2-3 seconds to my shot sequence and was thinking a hinge would slow me down and allow my subconscious to accept the pin floating on spot. Blank bale doesn't seem to do much to alleviate the anxiety. It helps me with form I think, but it doesnt teach me to deal with shooting at a spot, since there isn't one. So I don't get nervous. Soon as I go back to a spot it'll start creeping up on me again.

Can you offer any suggestions as to a training program? Where do you shoot in the Roseville area...I'm right over by the lake. I want to try to put in the time this winter to find a way to deal with it. I'm going to try to set up a large bale in the garage and start filming myself so I can see what I'm doing.

Appreciate all the help,
Neil

 

[velvetfvr]

I am gonna try a hinge to combat my target panic. I just can't shoot and hold on the bull by aiming and squeezing the trigger.

 

[wapitibob]

Your hinge won't fire till it rotates. You gotta make it shoot and the feeling of the hand moving gets most guys.
Regarding the trigger, if you go to a thumb release and change your release hand position, you can pull and not feel any movement.
Seat the middle and ring finger deep into the release and the pinky finger out on the pad. Your hand and finger position will be rotated much like a wrist strap release and when you pull you won't feel movement to make it fire. Just an option for you.
A friend of mine just won outdoor nationals and shoots a hinge. He shot a truball with safety for years. He switched to a non safety last year to get rid of the hand movement at full draw. Nothing wrong with a safety type hinge if you can live with the movement to turn it off. In his shot sequence, his focus is his release hand. Aiming is just "kinda there".
I had the panic for a long time back in the 70's, freezing above the spot, and found the real cure for me was to start close at a single spot face and shoot, and shoot, and shoot. Gradually moving back. My problem was the movement of the scope dot in and out of the target face. Learning that the movement was "ok" took months to get engrained in my brain. The problem I see with just switching releases is you haven't gotten past the aiming part of the shot. George Ryals has what he calls a "10 yard game" that he uses as a training aid for vegas. It reinforces the "movement is OK" side of the shot.

 

[velvetfvr]

Your hinge won't fire till it rotates. You gotta make it shoot and the feeling of the hand moving gets most guys.
Regarding the trigger, if you go to a thumb release and change your release hand position, you can pull and not feel any movement.
Seat the middle and ring finger deep into the release and the pinky finger out on the pad. Your hand and finger position will be rotated much like a wrist strap release and when you pull you won't feel movement to make it fire. Just an option for you.
A friend of mine just won outdoor nationals and shoots a hinge. He shot a truball with safety for years. He switched to a non safety last year to get rid of the hand movement at full draw. Nothing wrong with a safety type hinge if you can live with the movement to turn it off. In his shot sequence, his focus is his release hand. Aiming is just "kinda there".
I had the panic for a long time back in the 70's, freezing above the spot, and found the real cure for me was to start close at a single spot face and shoot, and shoot, and shoot. Gradually moving back. My problem was the movement of the scope dot in and out of the target face. Learning that the movement was "ok" took months to get engrained in my brain. The problem I see with just switching releases is you haven't gotten past the aiming part of the shot. George Ryals has what he calls a "10 yard game" that he uses as a training aid for vegas. It reinforces the "movement is OK" side of the shot.

Some hinges don't use rotation. Some are pull through.

 

[Jake Leibke]

Some hinges don't use rotation. Some are pull through.

I think you are confusing a hinge style and a thumb trigger.

 

[Neil B]

He might be talking about a resistance activated release like a Carter Evolution, Attraction, or Revolution. I was looking at a Evolution 3 finger in my local shop. But I didn't shoot it since I don't want to mess with something new until my season ends. I fully expect to get worse before I get better. I have heard that the resistance activated releases are sensitive to how you set up, and the consistency with which you pull into your stops at anchor? If you are inconsistent it changes the perceived pressure or weight that it takes to get the release to fire. Maybe someone with real experience can chime in. Maybe it's a release I should consider?

I think I need to ge away from a trigger activated by any one finger. Blank bale....then big spot at 5-10 yards for a few weeks? Any thoughts are appreciated.

Neil

 

[wapitibob]

Blank bale didn't do anything for me. If you have a decent shot sequence, you already know how to execute the shot. Problem comes in when you add the pin on the target. The only thing that helped me, and I tried a bunch of releases, even a modified hinge that shot when I relaxed my hand, was to shoot close so I was always in the spot, then gradually work back. And it took months.
The problem I see with resistance releases (I have 3 of them) is that they never repeat. The plus is that they really make a shot feel good. It feels like a shot is supposed to feel.

I think Reo had target panic real bad. You might msg him over on his Facebook page.

 

[RosinBag]

Neil I shoot at the Maya Range in Roseville and indoor at Wilderness Archery. Depending on what side of the lake, El Dorado Hills has a nice range also.

I think the GRIV method mentioned above is a good one. I know Dudley has written some good articles, but it sounds like you have read those.

I don't have any cures for it. I don't think I have ever had TP, if I have it must have been fairly minor.

I also don't like blank bailing, but I would start real close and hold on the spot and execute shot, which is what GRIV promotes. He knows a thousand times more than I.

If you have the time you can also look into getting a coach also. The downfall is there are not many out there , travel is needed and they still can't get in your head.

As far as pros goes, ones winning nationals and such is the can shoot any release well so don't let that sway you. Fact is they could outshoot most of us with our own bows. Get something you like, fits you and shoot some training like GRIV talks about.

 

[Neil B]

Thanks for the suggestion guys. I did find an article over on the Archery Learning Center detailing the 10 Yard Exercise. Sounds like that may be a good place to start. In the past, when I've shot close spots, I probably didn't focus on just that for a long enough period of time. After I few days I start to feel better, jump back in yardage, and my form starts to crumble quickly. I never actually engrained anything positive or taught my subconscious to tolerate being on target without having to immediately smack my trigger.

RosinBag - Dudley's articles are great....just a matter of finding a way to actually do what they describe. He's got a great one on his website on target panic, where he poses the theory that target panic isn't the fear of missing, it's the fear of actually hitting what your shooting at. I know if I draw with my thumb off trigger my sight picture is nice and stable and way different then my sight picture when I'm on trigger.

I think I'll pick up a hinge in the next few weeks. Give it a shot and see what it does to slow me down. I'll report back in a few weeks.

Thanks Again,
Neil

 

[pronghorn]

When you get your hinge set it slow so there is plenty of movement. This will prevent you from using it as a modified trigger.

 

[AGPank]

No two worse words in archery, target panic. I tend to hold in the bottom of a spot, wouldn't be enough to miss an elk or deer, but horrible for competition.

I tried a carter honey last year and of the hinge releases I've tried it is my favorite, the safety helps my confidence with this style release. I've been trying to decide whether to reply and there is good advice about facing target panic. It requires a complete reprogramming and lots of work, don't overlook an archery coach.

I don't think I would recommend the honey for hunting just because of the click when releasing the safety. A thumb trigger or index finger release can be shot with back tension and this form helps with target panic. A little money on an archery coach or book may save hundreds of dollars in archery equipment.

Another simple fail proof hinge is the Whalen hooker.

 

[Neil B]

Yea it's a B. The harder I try the worse I do. I've tried to shoot 5-6 days a week since mid summer after learning how to yoke tune. In my quest to become a robot, I started over analyzing everything in my shot routine and it all went south. I bring my pins in from above, and freeze just above my spot. I either shoot high or drive my pin past, and punch. Like I have a gremlin on my shoulder that runs my thumb trigger.

It's a problem I've had on and off for years, but one I need to stop pretending doesn't exist. It's frustrating because its not a mechanical issue...bow, fletch clearance, tune....it's me. I have Joe Bell's book, read most of Dudley's articles,and am always looking for more info. Hopefully there is some benefit to shooting a hinge. Dudley writes of Ulmer gifting him a hinge early on, and how it really helped him turn a corner. Hopefully there is something too it, cus target panic is miserable!

One thing I've had some success with is drawing and letting down 2-4 times prior to shooting an arrow. I think subconsciously it gets me used to seeing my pin float on spot, but then not actually releasing. Breaks the cycle a bit.

I plan on picking up a Honey Do (I think) and maybe a good thumb like a Too Simple or Just Cuz. Still like the idea of being able to hang my release on my D loop, but hopefully the hinge will help with the reprogramming.

Appreciate the help,
Neil

 

[TJ]

I went through the same thing as you several years ago. I tried several hand held releases (Carter & Whalen's Hooker) and a release that you could set a delay in the release (Scat).

I also read Bernie Patrely's Idiot Proof Archery. The book helped me realize the mental aspect of what was happening.

I ended up with a Carter Squeeze Me. I shot it for about 6 months and then added a Carter RX-1 for hunting purposes.

So far so good.

I hope you find your cure, good luck.

 

[jmez]

I am going to shoot a hinge this off season to try to improve my shooting. I don't have a target panic problem but think I will shoot much better if I can clean up my release. I don't know a lot about these things but being helped by a very competitive 3-D shooter. He recommended a three finger model over a four finger model if target panic is an issue. It is much easier to trigger a 4 finger model with your pinkie and cheat the release.

He recommended a Stan release to me. These come with a pin that locks the release and prevents it from firing. It makes a click just before it fires. You can practice with this with the pin in place and know when it would have went off, including when drawing, letting down etc. He thinks this is better than the models that have a safety as you can let yourself develop bad habits because the safety is always a crutch.