Camp Ownership. Structure

[Jakerex]

We have a hunting camp that is changing ownership. It’s currently owned by four siblings, but camp is being passed down to a few of those sibling’s kids. Right now it’s just a property with four named partners on the deed. Is there some other structure we should look into? I’ve heard folks talk about LLC, not-for-profit…..somehow, but I don’t know anything about any of this stuff. Any help and advice would be appreciated. Thanks all.


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[RockAndSage]

Figure out what it is that you want to protect, and go from there.

Is this about ensuring everyone has the right to hunt the property into the future? Is it about protecting it from being sold? Taxes?

 

[RockAndSage]

Not a lawyer, but that sounds like a situation for setting it all up in a trust.

 

[Jakerex]

Figure out what it is that you want to protect, and go from there.

Is this about ensuring everyone has the right to hunt the property into the future? Is it about protecting it from being sold? Taxes?

It's about making sure camp never leave's family's hands, continues to get passed down from generation to generation, and if anyone wants out, they can do so at any time but are not compensated in any way, shape, or form.

 

[ozyclint]

It's about making sure camp never leave's family's hands, continues to get passed down from generation to generation, and if anyone wants out, they can do so at any time but are not compensated in any way, shape, or form.

So if you get nothing to get out does it cost you to stay in? Are you expected to maintain, pay land tax etc etc if you stay in?

I'm no lawyer but that sounds like a raw deal

 

[Jakerex]

So if you get nothing to get out does it cost you to stay in? Are you expected to maintain, pay land tax etc etc if you stay in?

I'm no lawyer but that sounds like a raw deal

The camp has been in the family for a couple generations. It is paid for. Owners all contribute equally to the annual bills, which isn't much, and they all buck up when repairs are necessary.

Not sure what a "raw deal" would be. You would be given a piece of property for nothing, free, only because you wanted it and specifically asked to be a partner, and then if you ever want out, you go out the same way you came in, for free. Nothing raw about that deal, it's actually a great deal so you can be free to pass the property down to your kids some day, and not have to worry about your kids being stuck buying out other partners if and when they decide they want out or don't have someone to pass it on to.

This is how it's been operating, without anything in writing.

 

[go_deep]

It's about making sure camp never leave's family's hands, continues to get passed down from generation to generation, and if anyone wants out, they can do so at any time but are not compensated in any way, shape, or form.

That sounds great, till 80 people own the place, half don't hunt and want to go walk around during hunting season, cause is their land too.

Think bigger than you just don't want it to leave the family. You want someone to own it, but if they give it up get no compensation? Come on, that's not even logical, things happen, people need options.

 

[RockAndSage]

That sounds great, till 80 people own the place, half don't hunt and want to go walk around during hunting season, cause is their land too.

Think bigger than you just don't want it to leave the family. You want someone to own it, but if they give it up get no compensation? Come on, that's not even logical, things happen, people need options.

This is right on the money. Add in a greedy spouse, a narcissist, some sort of divorce, addictions, or an individual's tax problems, and people get squirrely, quickly. Setting it all up in a trust will also give you the ability to codify the purpose of the place, in a way that forces one family's Karens to stay the hell home if they aren't going to hunt.

 

[Jakerex]

That sounds great, till 80 people own the place, half don't hunt and want to go walk around during hunting season, cause is their land too.

Think bigger than you just don't want it to leave the family. You want someone to own it, but if they give it up get no compensation? Come on, that's not even logical, things happen, people need options.

I get it with the number of people thing.....I don't see that as being a problem because the folks in the family interested in camp and hunting continues to decline.

As far as being compensated if you want out, I mean, if you was given a camp with say your three siblings, and then those three siblings wanted out a few years later, and paid fair market value for their shares, would you have the money to do that? Not necessarily you, not a lot for people the answer is no, then camp gets sold to satisfy the greedy three siblings, and now nobody owns camp. Seen that happen with a few individuals over the years......camps get sold because members are battling over money, the worth of camp, their shares, etc.

I bet in a lot of cases family agrees to take ownership in family camps with the only intention of making money on it some day. That is what we're trying to eliminate. Continue to pass it down as long as family can. Someday, there may be nobody that wants it, and then the current members at that time can decide to sell.

Just how I Envision things. As soon as camp membership is about money, I'm out......I'll go buy my own place.

 

[Team4LongGun]

It's about making sure camp never leave's family's hands, continues to get passed down from generation to generation, and if anyone wants out, they can do so at any time but are not compensated in any way, shape, or form.

Those are pretty realistic, and generally easy goals. I'm not an attorney, but had a camp with mulitiple members. If you have an attorney draft up the bylaws/agreement/deed/business entity to reflect these, you should be solid moving forward.
Don't overthink it, keep it simple and plain. The no compensation is great in my opinion.

 

[go_deep]

I get it with the number of people thing.....I don't see that as being a problem because the folks in the family interested in camp and hunting continues to decline.

As far as being compensated if you want out, I mean, if you was given a camp with say your three siblings, and then those three siblings wanted out a few years later, and paid fair market value for their shares, would you have the money to do that? Not necessarily you, not a lot for people the answer is no, then camp gets sold to satisfy the greedy three siblings, and now nobody owns camp. Seen that happen with a few individuals over the years......camps get sold because members are battling over money, the worth of camp, their shares, etc.

I bet in a lot of cases family agrees to take ownership in family camps with the only intention of making money on it some day. That is what we're trying to eliminate. Continue to pass it down as long as family can. Someday, there may be nobody that wants it, and then the current members at that time can decide to sell.

Just how I Envision things. As soon as camp membership is about money, I'm out......I'll go buy my own place.

So if your dream bylaws are so strick and nobody wants to sign them in the first place, you buying them all out, or does camp get sold before it ever got started?

 

[Team4LongGun]

I get it with the number of people thing.....I don't see that as being a problem because the folks in the family interested in camp and hunting continues to decline.

As far as being compensated if you want out, I mean, if you was given a camp with say your three siblings, and then those three siblings wanted out a few years later, and paid fair market value for their shares, would you have the money to do that? Not necessarily you, not a lot for people the answer is no, then camp gets sold to satisfy the greedy three siblings, and now nobody owns camp. Seen that happen with a few individuals over the years......camps get sold because members are battling over money, the worth of camp, their shares, etc.

I bet in a lot of cases family agrees to take ownership in family camps with the only intention of making money on it some day. That is what we're trying to eliminate. Continue to pass it down as long as family can. Someday, there may be nobody that wants it, and then the current members at that time can decide to sell.

Just how I Envision things. As soon as camp membership is about money, I'm out......I'll go buy my own place.

I think you’re on the right track. Our camp was mentored by one of the largest and longest running camps in PA. It was awesome to be invited there during deer camp. The food, the camaraderie, the history ot generations on the walls and in story was so cool to see.

Many takeaways from their success, but in short you are spot on-the second money is involved it will not last.

 

[Jakerex]

So if your dream bylaws are so strick and nobody wants to sign them in the first place, you buying them all out, or does camp get sold before it ever got started?

Dude, camp is already started. The generation above me is starting to pass their shares down to their adult kids. Right now there is two of us receiving a share and will be owners with two current owners for the foreseeable future. The two remaining will pass their shares down if another kid is interested, if not, they will just bow out and there will be only two of us as owners. I'm just trying to tidy things up because there has never been anything formal in writing. "All current owners" are on-board with bylaws as I described. I'm just wondering the best way to form the organization because I am ignorant to the legal stuff and structures of different organizations. Either way, with all owners interested in the same "dream bylaws" that I described, it should be fairly easy to accomplish......just need to figure out the structure. The structure is the reason for the post.

 

[Team4LongGun]

So if your dream bylaws are so strick and nobody wants to sign them in the first place, you buying them all out, or does camp get sold before it ever got started?

I didn’t see anything about strict bylaws, folks not wanting to sign, and the camp being new??

Apologies if I missed them, but can’t make sense of your reply.

 

[Jakerex]

I think you’re on the right track. Our camp was mentored by one of the largest and longest running camps in PA. It was awesome to be invited there during deer camp. The food, the camaraderie, the history ot generations on the walls and in story was so cool to see.

Many takeaways from their success, but in short you are spot on-the second money is involved it will not last.

That's what I'm talking about, and that's what camp is to me. I'm in PA too, camp in in NW PA.

 

[180ls1]

You really need to sit down with an estate attorney. This stuff changes significantly state by state.

 

[Jakerex]

You really need to sit down with an estate attorney. This stuff changes significantly state by state.

You're probably correct there, and I will do that. Thanks!

 

[go_deep]

I didn’t see anything about strict bylaws, folks not wanting to sign, and the camp being new??

Apologies if I missed them, but can’t make sense of your reply.

You want out, you get nothing. Seems strict to me.
Looking to change how ownership is handled, that's new.
Ownership passed down to new people.
You'll need to sign something for all that to happen.

Like I say, might go so strict that nobody's going to want to be part of it. If they all do, great, get the contracts out and sign away.

 

[go_deep]

Dude, camp is already started. The generation above me is starting to pass their shares down to their adult kids. Right now there is two of us receiving a share and will be owners with two current owners for the foreseeable future. The two remaining will pass their shares down if another kid is interested, if not, they will just bow out and there will be only two of us as owners. I'm just trying to tidy things up because there has never been anything formal in writing. "All current owners" are on-board with bylaws as I described. I'm just wondering the best way to form the organization because I am ignorant to the legal stuff and structures of different organizations. Either way, with all owners interested in the same "dream bylaws" that I described, it should be fairly easy to accomplish......just need to figure out the structure. The structure is the reason for the post.

So the two other owners are okay with busy walking away and getting nothing if their kids don't want their share?
After all those years, work, time, and effort, they'll just walk away?

 

[rookieforever33]

Never get advice from a forum that should come from a lawyer.