Camp Month: Floorless Phenomenon by Brock Akers

[robby denning]

If you follow the Rokslide forums, you’ll see the debate between & amongst the tent crowd: To go floorless or not to go floorless?

Brock Akers, Director of Train to Hunt, spends a bunch of nights in the woods and is here to demonstrate his floorless system he uses from bug weather to cold and snow:

http://www.rokslide.com/2012-01-09-05-09-42/sleep-systems/331-floorless-phenomenon

 

[wyodan]

Brock, after reading this, are you finding a significant weight savings from a tarp and a bivy compared to a solo tent? I've been looking at a floorless shelter, but it seems adding in the bivy brings my weight back up to my solo tent.

 

[Brock A]

Brock, after reading this, are you finding a significant weight savings from a tarp and a bivy compared to a solo tent? I've been looking at a floorless shelter, but it seems adding in the bivy brings my weight back up to my solo tent.

Wyodan,

GREAT question. There are so many variables that it's tough to give an easy answer. Here are a couple of things to consider.

If you're running a heavier floored tent already (3.5lbs or more) it's going to be pretty easy to save weight. But if you have a lighter tent (such as a big Agnes fly creek UL2) it's going to be closer to a wash. Maybe 6 oz difference is all. The benifit really becomes more space at that point. Or you could drop the money on a cubes fiber tarp and then you'll be back into the major weight savings. It also depends on what bivy you go with. Some bivys weight 7oz and some weigh 18+oz.

Hope that makes sense.

disclaimer: I dont run 1 man tents because they are just too damn small. If i mention a floored tent I'm referring to a 2 man version.

 

[Ironman8]

I'm not Brock, but I'll throw in my .02. Weight savings will depend on what you're comparing exactly, so there's no real way to answer your question. What I can say is that a tarp will be much lighter than a tent for a given area of coverage. Your choice of a ground sheet or type of bivy for a floorless shelter can round out the system and either make the weight right up there with a traditional tent or significantly lighter, depending on what you choose.

I personally use an enclosed floorless shelter (LBO) and as such, just use a small ground sheet. But if I were in an open tarp setup, a bivy would give more weather protection and be more versatile...in which case I'd be looking at something like a minimalist bivy in the 7-8oz range...which is only a few ounces more than a ground sheet would be.

In either case, with the right choices in gear, you could save pretty significant weight over a traditional tent, when you factor in the space that you get.

ETA: Typing at the same time as Brock...Seems we agree

 

[wyodan]

Thanks guys! I have a BA Copper Spur 1, and that is running just a little under 3 pounds. But it is small. I figured with a floorless, I would probably save a pound, have more room, and not worry about the dog tearing up the floor. I would probably use a bivy as well at some point.

What kind of pad do you guys use in the floorless systems?

 

[Brock A]

Thanks guys! I have a BA Copper Spur 1, and that is running just a little under 3 pounds. But it is small. I figured with a floorless, I would probably save a pound, have more room, and not worry about the dog tearing up the floor. I would probably use a bivy as well at some point.

What kind of pad do you guys use in the floorless systems?

I am running a Big Agnes Q-Core SL.

https://www.bigagnes.com/index.php/Products/Detail/Pad/qcoresl

I wouldnt mind switching it up though as its a little heavy and there is some new stuff hitting the market soon I think.

 

[5MilesBack]

The benifit really becomes more space at that point.

You mention more space......but from my experience in trying tarp type shelters, I lose a lot of useable space because of the slope of the tarp walls. For instance, as an example I'll use the new SO BT-2 which is listed at 96"x108" (not rectangular however). That sounds like an incredible amount of space. However, because of the slope of the walls I lose about 18" on each side as far as useable sleeping space, without having my feet or head touching the walls. So that "large" space is suddenly now about 60"x72" of useable space (other than storing some items in the low clearance wall slope). For someone that's 6' tall, that's not an issue.

But when a particular shelter appears to look great on paper, at 6'6" I suddenly can't fit well in that shelter in real life. Some tents have the same issues as well, depending on the slope of the walls. That's why it's so tough to buy these things sight unseen, just going off of listed specs. I can't even begin to say how much gear I've gone through over the years because it looked great in principle, but in real world it failed miserably for me.

 

[Brock A]

You mention more space......but from my experience in trying tarp type shelters, I lose a lot of useable space because of the slope of the tarp walls. For instance, as an example I'll use the new SO BT-2 which is listed at 96"x108" (not rectangular however). That sounds like an incredible amount of space. However, because of the slope of the walls I lose about 18" on each side as far as useable sleeping space, without having my feet or head touching the walls. So that "large" space is suddenly now about 60"x72" of useable space (other than storing some items in the low clearance wall slope). For someone that's 6' tall, that's not an issue.

But when a particular shelter appears to look great on paper, at 6'6" I suddenly can't fit well in that shelter in real life. Some tents have the same issues as well, depending on the slope of the walls. That's why it's so tough to buy these things sight unseen, just going off of listed specs. I can't even begin to say how much gear I've gone through over the years because it looked great in principle, but in real world it failed miserably for me.

5Mile,

I would imagine at 6' 6" finding a shelter is a PITA for you! Seems like most shelters are made for that 5'10" - 6'0" height. Anyway, I looked at the BT-2 and yeah you are right with those steep walls, you loose that usable space. My experience comes with para, super & mega tarps. Where once pitched, you can then pull out the sides, giving about 16" to 18" of vertical wall and thus giving you your space back. The pictures of my Supertarp pitched tight to the ground illustrates this well. The option that gives you the most space though, is pitching it up off the ground. Not always an option though if the weather is nasty. In that case I would pitch it tight then pull the walls out.

Great points of discussion. All tarps are different, something that should be noted.

 

[Justin Crossley]

Here are a couple of different floorless options if you want to save weight.

First is my summer and early season minimalist shelter. I'm running a Zpacks Cuben tarp, a Tigoat Ravon bivy, a ThermaRest Xtherm and a Zpacks 30* quilt. The Total weight of this system including the stakes, is under three lbs. Again, this is a minimalist shelter with just enough room for me and most of my gear underneath. I have used this setup through some pretty solid storms and I'm yet to have an issue. In fact, less than an hour after this picture was taken, I was forced under my tarp for a little over an hour as a really nasty thunder storm blew through.

This is the setup I've been running during colder hunts or when I'm sharing a shelter with one or two buddies. This pic is from a Colorado deer hunt last year where three of us stayed in my SL5 for 5 days. We had plenty of room for all three of us with our gear. The SL5 without the inner nest, weighs under three lbs. and with a 7 oz bivy per person, gives you a lot of space for very little weight. The SL5 is no longer being made but there are other companies making similar shelters now and some have even improved on the design.

This year, I'm also adding the Kifaru Sawtooth with a wood stove for trips where I want to use a stove to warm up and dry gear. I haven't used it yet but I know it will be awesome for those late November deer hunts in Idaho and Colorado when the temps are getting way down there!

 

[bogeyboy555]

Hey Brock - I ended up noticing that with a tarp (hilleberg UL Tarp) i just end up having to take a bigger, heavier, more bulky sleeping bag and I lose precious space because the heavier sleeping bags take up so much space. I end up almost exclusively using the Hilleberg Soulo tent, and I can use a 35 degree bag that compresses WAY down.... so even though the tent seems more minimalistic, for me it just ends up being a swap. Heavy tent, ultralight bag..... vs..... lightweight tarp, heavier/bulkier sleeping bag. The tarp setup is a little bit lighter.

 

[F16pointy]

I have used a Kifaru tipi for a fly in moose hunt. We had rain snow ice and everything in between on that trip. I think the fact that it was floorless was a positive. I never had any issues with water coming in from the edges and I liked that I could go in with all my gear on and not destroy the floor. I have always run traditional floor type tents until that hunt. The tipi was a friends, but it convinced me to buy the mega tarp. The tarp with everything offered comes in about 4.5 lbs or so with the med 7" stove. But I wont use a bivy with it during late season hunts. I didn't see the need when I was using the tipi so I will save on the weight. If I go with the tarp only early season I may use a bivy since I will encounter the AK state bird....the mosquito!

 

[Brock A]

Hey Brock - I ended up noticing that with a tarp (hilleberg UL Tarp) i just end up having to take a bigger, heavier, more bulky sleeping bag and I lose precious space because the heavier sleeping bags take up so much space. I end up almost exclusively using the Hilleberg Soulo tent, and I can use a 35 degree bag that compresses WAY down.... so even though the tent seems more minimalistic, for me it just ends up being a swap. Heavy tent, ultralight bag..... vs..... lightweight tarp, heavier/bulkier sleeping bag. The tarp setup is a little bit lighter.

I can honestly say I haven't had to take a heavier sleeping bag because of a tarp set up...

 

[bourbon]

You mention more space......but from my experience in trying tarp type shelters, I lose a lot of useable space because of the slope of the tarp walls. For instance, as an example I'll use the new SO BT-2 which is listed at 96"x108" (not rectangular however). That sounds like an incredible amount of space. However, because of the slope of the walls I lose about 18" on each side as far as useable sleeping space, without having my feet or head touching the walls. So that "large" space is suddenly now about 60"x72" of useable space (other than storing some items in the low clearance wall slope). For someone that's 6' tall, that's not an issue.

But when a particular shelter appears to look great on paper, at 6'6" I suddenly can't fit well in that shelter in real life. Some tents have the same issues as well, depending on the slope of the walls. That's why it's so tough to buy these things sight unseen, just going off of listed specs. I can't even begin to say how much gear I've gone through over the years because it looked great in principle, but in real world it failed miserably for me.

I'm also 6'6". Have you found a tipi that works well for your height? I'm looking for one, but just like you have issues with being so tall.

 

[Backpack Hunter]

At 6'6" you can easily fit in the Sawtooth.

 

[bourbon]

At 6'6" you can easily fit in the Sawtooth.

Thanks. Anyone else tall and have some thoughts on cheaper priced shelters? The sawtooth looks awesome and gets rave reviews but is out of my price range.

 

[Backpack Hunter]

Might not be able to help much, but what price range are you working with?

 

[bourbon]

Might not be able to help much, but what price range are you working with?

Probably around half or less of what a Sawtooth cost. I'm looking for only 3 season duty so not really interested in using a stove, but bug netting would be nice.

 

[moxford]

6'6" thoughts

Thanks. Anyone else tall and have some thoughts on cheaper priced shelters? The sawtooth looks awesome and gets rave reviews but is out of my price range.

The SL3 works for at 6'6". Probably have the same issues finding the SL3 as with the SL5 though. There are videos out there for making your own - most tarps are straight-cut so they're really easy to make. If you're adventurous you could make your own catenary-cut version though.

There was a video I saw once of a rectangular tarp being setup as a tipi by folding in some of the sides. No vents or anything fancy but it worked.

Downside to the tipi is the pole in the middle. It's really super obnoxious.

-mox

 

[Backpack Hunter]

I'm sorry but the SL3 will not work at 6'6", at least not without feet or head pushing out the side walls. At 6'2" you have to be very careful not to rub the walls.
The SL5 should work better. Maybe a Luna 5, definitely an Oware 11x11.

 

[Jackelope]

I'm sorry but the SL3 will not work at 6'6", at least not without feet or head pushing out the side walls. At 6'2" you have to be very careful not to rub the walls.
The SL5 should work better. Maybe a Luna 5, definitely an Oware 11x11.

Agree. 6'4" and sold my SL3 because I'm too long for it. Went to a SL5.