Bullet design for modest hunting distance on all game

[ZAK13]

Federal loaded the 165 trophy bonded tipped in 308, those might be a good option for all around as well.

I was gonna say this, if you don't reload, this is, for the money, the best option I feel for the 308. The bullet is designed to expand all the way down to 1600fps. Most cup and core style bullets are built to expand at the minimum of 1800fps, and the Federal TBT is bonded and reliably expands down to 1600fps.

 

[Missoula Mike]

Out of something "old" and "archaic" like my 308.... is there a bullet that really can do it all from close up to 400? How much of it is bullet design and how much is really placement? I haven't seen enough game fall to a rifle to be able to know what it means when a bullet performs or doesn't, other than I know the remington corelokt I inherited with my grandpas 30-06 is very different than the new core lokt. I'm an archery hunter, so I appreciate the insite and I want to learn.

I'm making a case in my head for a one size fits all bullet for deer, antelope and elk. Is that really a thing?

Is there such a thing as too much bullet on lighter game? Will A heavily jacketed, controlled expansion bullet built for elk size game perform poorly on deer and antelope ?

My 308 really likes 178 grain terminal ascent, 150 grain nosler partitions, 165 grain accubonds, 130 grain ballistic tips, and it absolutely does not like core lokts..at all. And I was pretty unimpressed by what I saw with them at short range on deer over the last 5 or 6. All died, but only one exited and no blood trail which really shocked me.

Teach me more

Here you go...a terrific (IMO) sight for information.

Effective Game Killing

Effective game killing- How bullets kill and where to aim to ensure a fast clean kill.

www.ballisticstudies.com

Be sure to click the "Knowledge Base" tab when you're finished reading...it gives information about specific calibers. Here's the link to the 308 since that's what you mentioned.

.308 Winchester

Hope this helps.

Mike

 

[Erussell01]

Too much? What does that mean? Is there too much dead?

I shot my Buffalo with Federal Gold Medal Match with 168s out of my 308. I would shoot an Antelope with the same or even my 7mm with 180. I want a dead antelope.

My fear is that a bullet designed for elk, like the terminal ascent will pencil through an antelope. Maybe that's not justified, but I've only killed one, and seen two total die... I am definitely not an expert.

We used my wife's 7-08 for both. 120 grain ttsx mild hand load that my dad cooked up running at 2600 fps for her to have low recoil. Her max effective range is less than 200 so the lower starting velocity wasn't much of an issue with that bullet.

She hit the shoulderof her buck at just over 100 yards (after the most perfect stalk ever) and the antelope was DRT. Her bullet mushroomed beautifully like a picture in a magazine and got stuck on the off side just under the hide

My antelope, the bullet passed right through the back of the lungs and did no meat damage at all, but did not leave a remarkable hole. The antelope only made it another 30 yards or so, but I was shocked at the small size if the hole.

I guess dead animal is dead animal. But what if the shot was off a little bit and the bullet didn't do enough damage?
I know, I'm over thinking.

 

[Erussell01]

What makes you think you need a bonded or controlled expansion bullet to get an exit hole with a 308? If you want a bunch of examples of how the bullets I mentioned work on game, Google “deceased by scenar”.

Good question- Of the 5 deer I've seen killed with that 308 using 150 grain cup and core type bullets there has never been an exit hole yet. After the first one , I thought it may have been a fluke so I kept using the same bullet (it was my father in law behind the trigger after all, so I figured that had to be the problem) After the 3rd, still a with no exit, I tried a different bullet option of similar design (cup and core) and still no luck for the next 2 for him. After using my grandmother's 270 to finish off a not so well hit deer and having a beautiful exit hole in the lungs at 180 yards and the deer drop right there with a 130 grain accubond it made me think some more. The only deer I have ever killed with a rifle personally (besides the one I helped tip over for my father in law with the 270) was with my grandpas 742 in 30-06 using a 165 grain psp and it made two holes and had relatively easy tracking for the 40 yards the deer went.

Now I'm trying to find a better solution, since tracking deer in the thick timber with no blood really sucks.

I will absolutely take a look at those scenar bullets man, I appreciate the suggestion!

 

[Erussell01]

I was gonna say this, if you don't reload, this is, for the money, the best option I feel for the 308. The bullet is designed to expand all the way down to 1600fps. Most cup and core style bullets are built to expand at the minimum of 1800fps, and the Federal TBT is bonded and reliably expands down to 1600fps.

I don't reload, but my dad does!

I have a couple boxes of the tbt and I'm going to test them out on paper this weekend to see what my gun likes best at 300. Do you have any animals down with them? I love the concept but haven't killed anything with them yet.

 

[Erussell01]

Man you guys rock, thanks for the opinions and experience sharing so far. I really appreciate it all!

 

[Erussell01]

Too much? What does that mean? Is there too much dead?

I shot my Buffalo with Federal Gold Medal Match with 168s out of my 308. I would shoot an Antelope with the same or even my 7mm with 180. I want a dead antelope.

Man, you shot a buffalo!?
That is AWESOME!
I have been building points for a future buffalo hunt... I hope to do it with my bow, but that is so dang cool!

 

[Ondavirg]

Terminal ascents will expand just fine on deer/antelope sized game. I have used them on 40 pound pigs up to elk from my 308. Pigs and their thick hides usually provide terrible blood trails, but the terminal ascent has given reliable blood trails for me.

The reason I like a bonded bullet over a cup and core is for the close range work. A 50 yard shot is more common for me than 300. I’ve had some perplexing results with cup and core/ballistic tips at close range that I don’t want to see again, so I’ll stick with something bonded. The monos have given me mixed results, punching through without much blood on the ground.

 

[Erussell01]

Terminal ascents will expand just fine on deer/antelope sized game. I have used them on 40 pound pigs up to elk from my 308. Pigs and their thick hides usually provide terrible blood trails, but the terminal ascent has given reliable blood trails for me.

The reason I like a bonded bullet over a cup and core is for the close range work. A 50 yard shot is more common for me than 300. I’ve had some perplexing results with cup and core/ballistic tips at close range that I don’t want to see again, so I’ll stick with something bonded. The monos have given me mixed results, punching through without much blood on the ground.

This really matches with my limited experience. I don't have a ton of dead animals with rifles, but I don't think cup and core has quite done what I am looking for. I will absolutely be searching for more terminal ascent bullets for sure. I snagged the last two boxes at a local shop last year and haven't seen them since

 

[Slugz]

How Bullets Work: Cup-Core Bullets Explained — Ron Spomer Outdoors

How do you choose which bullets best for your rifle and hunt? Cup-core bullets explained in Part one of our detailed big game bullet report.

www.ronspomeroutdoors.com

 

[Erussell01]

How Bullets Work: Cup-Core Bullets Explained — Ron Spomer Outdoors

How do you choose which bullets best for your rifle and hunt? Cup-core bullets explained in Part one of our detailed big game bullet report.

www.ronspomeroutdoors.com

Thanks!
I love Ron. I enjoy his breakdown videos on his YouTube page a lot. From reading this, it makes sense why cup and core has not delivered what I was hoping for at short range higher impact velocities. Too much expansion due to a higher impact velocity so no exit hole and less blood on the ground to track with.

 

[ElPollo]

Good question- Of the 5 deer I've seen killed with that 308 using 150 grain cup and core type bullets there has never been an exit hole yet. After the first one , I thought it may have been a fluke so I kept using the same bullet (it was my father in law behind the trigger after all, so I figured that had to be the problem) After the 3rd, still a with no exit, I tried a different bullet option of similar design (cup and core) and still no luck for the next 2 for him. After using my grandmother's 270 to finish off a not so well hit deer and having a beautiful exit hole in the lungs at 180 yards and the deer drop right there with a 130 grain accubond it made me think some more. The only deer I have ever killed with a rifle personally (besides the one I helped tip over for my father in law with the 270) was with my grandpas 742 in 30-06 using a 165 grain psp and it made two holes and had relatively easy tracking for the 40 yards the deer went.

Now I'm trying to find a better solution, since tracking deer in the thick timber with no blood really sucks.

I will absolutely take a look at those scenar bullets man, I appreciate the suggestion!

Where are you shooting them? Are these shoulder or raking shots? What is your average shot distance. I know you said you are selective on shots, but 5 without an exit is a lot. Deer chests are not that thick or particularly tough. I’ve caught one bullet in game in my whole life, but I’m a dirty meat hunter who likes to eat shoulders. I’m also someone who has come back to lead in recent years from monos because the latter left me wanting in terms of wound cavity size. I’m also in the west where shots tend to be longer. If you are taking a lot of thirty yard shots out of a stand, my advice may change.

 

[Erussell01]

Where are you shooting them? Are these shoulder or raking shots? What is your average shot distance. I know you said you are selective on shots, but 5 without an exit is a lot. Deer chests are not that thick or particularly tough. I’ve caught one bullet in game in my whole life, but I’m a dirty meat hunter who likes to eat shoulders. I’m also someone who has come back to lead in recent years from monos because the latter left me wanting in terms of wound cavity size. I’m also in the west where shots tend to be longer. If you are taking a lot of thirty yard shots out of a stand, my advice may change.

All good questions, I too am a dirty meat hunter who likes to eat shoulders lol.

I don't rifle hunt deer much since I'm really a bowhunter. I have only recently tip toed into rifle hunting for myself. For the past 4 years, I have taken my wife, her dad and my dad who come up rifle hunting. Most often my deer tags are filled by rifle season with my bow (again, I'm also a dirty meat hunter who loves to eat.... so doe patrol is my jam) in general most of the shots are close close. Thick timber, treestand or ground blind hunting for white tails at ranges up to 100 yards. The only deer I've shot over 100 was the big doe with my grandpas rifle (30-06) that I mentioned above, and that was the only one with an exit. All of the others shot with my 308 (used by whoever needs a rifle) have not had exits. My wife's buck two years ago was 17 yards through the liver and back of the lungs and did not exit. Thankfully we found it before the falling snow covered it up. Her antelope last year was through one shoulder and did not exit, the bullet was under the hide on the other side. Her deer last year had no exit either, but that was the same bullet a 7mm08 120 grain ttsx and she again toasted one shoulder. She hugs the crease tight and I'm not going to tell her otherwise... lol

I have only hunted antelope out west, but will be taking my dad and wife with the rifles next year for elk. More than likely cow elk, but we will see what happens with all of the tag situations. I would like to rifle hunt more, and I will in the coming years.

So knowing more about how I use the rifles, what would change in your advice?

 

[ElPollo]

All good questions, I too am a dirty meat hunter who likes to eat shoulders lol.

I don't rifle hunt deer much since I'm really a bowhunter. I have only recently tip toed into rifle hunting for myself. For the past 4 years, I have taken my wife, her dad and my dad who come up rifle hunting. Most often my deer tags are filled by rifle season with my bow (again, I'm also a dirty meat hunter who loves to eat.... so doe patrol is my jam) in general most of the shots are close close. Thick timber, treestand or ground blind hunting for white tails at ranges up to 100 yards. The only deer I've shot over 100 was the big doe with my grandpas rifle (30-06) that I mentioned above, and that was the only one with an exit. All of the others shot with my 308 (used by whoever needs a rifle) have not had exits. My wife's buck two years ago was 17 yards through the liver and back of the lungs and did not exit. Thankfully we found it before the falling snow covered it up. Her antelope last year was through one shoulder and did not exit, the bullet was under the hide on the other side. Her deer last year had no exit either, but that was the same bullet a 7mm08 120 grain ttsx and she again toasted one shoulder. She hugs the crease tight and I'm not going to tell her otherwise... lol

I have only hunted antelope out west, but will be taking my dad and wife with the rifles next year for elk. More than likely cow elk, but we will see what happens with all of the tag situations. I would like to rifle hunt more, and I will in the coming years.

So knowing more about how I use the rifles, what would change in your advice?

Yeah, my advice was colored by my experience and hunting conditions which have pretty much nothing to do with yours. I make decisions on bullets about what they do at the outer end of my possible range, not the inner. I can totally see using accubonds for what you’re doing. Honestly this discussion is helpful for me because I will be doing a midwestern multi-doe grocery run this fall. I will likely still stick with the scenars in my 6.5, but my 300 WSM may use something a little tougher.

 

[Formidilosus]

I don't rifle hunt deer much since I'm really a bowhunter. I have only recently tip toed into rifle hunting for myself.

Given the above, I would highly recommend reading this entire thread to learn how bullets work in tissue- 223 for bear, deer, elk, and moose

Once you read it in its entirety, you will have a much better understanding of terminal ballistic facts.

 

[hereinaz]

Man, you shot a buffalo!?
That is AWESOME!
I have been building points for a future buffalo hunt... I hope to do it with my bow, but that is so dang cool!

Once in a lifetime Arizona hunt. Loved it.

 

[Mountainrancher]

Not sure if anyone has mentioned them but if you don’t want to shoot past 400 with a 308 a nosler partition is probably your best all around bet. The front is not bonded so you will have soft bullet performance like a traditional cup and core. The back part of the bullet is locked in by a layer of solid copper so after the front of the bullet expands the base will often drive through and get an exit. The concept of the terminal ascent bullet from federal is similar. The terminal ascent is almost like a modernized partition although I have not shot anything with them so isn’t know for sure.

 

[Erussell01]

Yeah, my advice was colored by my experience and hunting conditions which have pretty much nothing to do with yours. I make decisions on bullets about what they do at the outer end of my possible range, not the inner. I can totally see using accubonds for what you’re doing. Honestly this discussion is helpful for me because I will be doing a midwestern multi-doe grocery run this fall. I will likely still stick with the scenars in my 6.5, but my 300 WSM may use something a little tougher.

What state!? Come shoot some does here in MN. I have way too many right now and they won't give me any more tags.

What state is home?

 

[Erussell01]

Given the above, I would highly recommend reading this entire thread to learn how bullets work in tissue- 223 for bear, deer, elk, and moose

Once you read it in its entirety, you will have a much better understanding of terminal ballistic facts.

Will do! Thank you! 88 pages might take me a minute lol

 

[Erussell01]

Not sure if anyone has mentioned them but if you don’t want to shoot past 400 with a 308 a nosler partition is probably your best all around bet. The front is not bonded so you will have soft bullet performance like a traditional cup and core. The back part of the bullet is locked in by a layer of solid copper so after the front of the bullet expands the base will often drive through and get an exit. The concept of the terminal ascent bullet from federal is similar. The terminal ascent is almost like a modernized partition although I have not shot anything with them so isn’t know for sure.

I'm pretty sure more animals have died by a nosler partition from my dad and grandpa than I'll ever even see. They both love them! I don't know why I never consider the.. do you have any personal experience with them? How do they fly?