Bugles: Am I doing it wrong?

[freediver111]

While I tagged out on a good 5x5 opening week, I'm still out there calling and helping friends. This is in Eastern Oregon for reference.
So yesterday we find a bull that was bugling. We cow called the evening before and he bugled a few times after legal shooting light so we backed out and came back the next morning. We find him 20 mins before first light with a location bugle that he responds to. He's maybe 200 yards away at this point. He's got some cows, maybe 6-8, not sure. I get the shooter set-up ahead and cow call at first light. He bugles a bit but doesn't really care. I then decide to get close, like 80 yards or less and bugle/cow call with the shooter out front. He doesn't like that and fires back. I break sticks, challenge him, cow call, etc.....he takes his cows and leaves, bugling as he goes, or maybe his cows took him, not sure but I know they made a line horizontal to our position and never came in. We chase him around for 30 mins and get him to bugle a bit more but he's essentially leaving with his cows. I'm sure at one point he crossed within 60 yards of me with his cows but in the thick stuff. Wind was good the whole time. What gives? I may not be a world champ bugler, but I'm pretty decent. I can rip a variety of bugles, including challenge bugles and sound pretty good. I was trying to sound like a bull challenging him, but who knows if I'm doing something dumb.

I've killed 6 elk in 8 years of living in Oregon and I've called in 4 others that fell to a friends arrow but I have yet to kill one by having them come in to fight. All died thanks to cow calls, including this years bull opening week. I have called in a small handful of bulls coming in to a bugle, but it's rare that it works for me. Most take their cows and leave, even when I'm pretty close. I tend to use cow sounds and bugles to sound like I have one of his cows, and maybe that's a mistake.

So any advice from those of you that seem to use bugles effectively? I would love to actually have one come in for a fight one of these days. Seems like that never works for me. Thanks, and good luck this season! I feel like it's been rather slow lately, hopefully things pick-up!

 

[IdahoElk]

Sounds like a pre rut small bull with some cows acting like he's the herd bull but when push comes to shove he decided he wasn't the boss.
Your strategy sounded solid for a herd bull in a week or so when the cows go into heat just drop all the cow calls and challenge bugles.Bugle to the cows instead which is just a short one tone bugle with no lip balling or chuckles.

 

[freediver111]

Copy on the calling to cows. Do you generally avoid lip balling and chuckling and all the challenge stuff? Or do you do that right when he's really pissed and seems committed to fight?


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[Jarrod Renaud]

Look up JOEL turner on YouTube. His bull calling cow bugle works like a charm when a bull has cows and you're close. But then again, sometimes there's just nothing you can do

 

[troutbum24]

Nice work just got done hunting in your neck of the woods!! off topic reply. but... your a freediver and live in John Day!? thats a hell of a long ways from the ocean (assuming you spear fish the salt). Im thinking of moving to OR, but within 2-4 hrs of the ocean since I love spearfishing so much.

 

[freediver111]

Nice work just got done hunting in your neck of the woods!! off topic reply. but... your a freediver and live in John Day!? thats a hell of a long ways from the ocean (assuming you spear fish the salt). Im thinking of moving to OR, but within 2-4 hrs of the ocean since I love spearfishing so much.

Before moving here I lived in HI for 8 years. Really loved spear fishing back there. Used to travel all over the South Pacific for work and did a lot of spear fishing on my travels. Haven't been for several years now. I want to try spearing off the OR coast but know nothing about it. One of these days I should try.


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[J_hol]

Once you have a back and forth going with a bull inside of 200 yds. It's time to only cow call and challenge bugle(short, angry, high pitched). Make sure the wind is perfect and your shooter isn't moving around. I think a lot of people get blown by bulls coming in sneaky/slowly and start to fidget. It can take a looooong time for them to close.


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[tipsntails7]

While I tagged out on a good 5x5 opening week, I'm still out there calling and helping friends. This is in Eastern Oregon for reference.
So yesterday we find a bull that was bugling. We cow called the evening before and he bugled a few times after legal shooting light so we backed out and came back the next morning. We find him 20 mins before first light with a location bugle that he responds to. He's maybe 200 yards away at this point. He's got some cows, maybe 6-8, not sure. I get the shooter set-up ahead and cow call at first light. He bugles a bit but doesn't really care. I then decide to get close, like 80 yards or less and bugle/cow call with the shooter out front. He doesn't like that and fires back. I break sticks, challenge him, cow call, etc.....he takes his cows and leaves, bugling as he goes, or maybe his cows took him, not sure but I know they made a line horizontal to our position and never came in. We chase him around for 30 mins and get him to bugle a bit more but he's essentially leaving with his cows. I'm sure at one point he crossed within 60 yards of me with his cows but in the thick stuff. Wind was good the whole time. What gives? I may not be a world champ bugler, but I'm pretty decent. I can rip a variety of bugles, including challenge bugles and sound pretty good. I was trying to sound like a bull challenging him, but who knows if I'm doing something dumb.

I've killed 6 elk in 8 years of living in Oregon and I've called in 4 others that fell to a friends arrow but I have yet to kill one by having them come in to fight. All died thanks to cow calls, including this years bull opening week. I have called in a small handful of bulls coming in to a bugle, but it's rare that it works for me. Most take their cows and leave, even when I'm pretty close. I tend to use cow sounds and bugles to sound like I have one of his cows, and maybe that's a mistake.

So any advice from those of you that seem to use bugles effectively? I would love to actually have one come in for a fight one of these days. Seems like that never works for me. Thanks, and good luck this season! I feel like it's been rather slow lately, hopefully things pick-up!

Honestly your experience is exactly what mine is in Oregon. I'm assuming general archery tags. I did exactly what you described this year on one of the bigger bulls I've seen in a general unit. I couldn't get him to commit to anything. He was happy with his cows and wanted nothing to do with anything else.

I've had ALOT more success in units where they don't constantly get hammered with every tom dick and Harry that has a bugle.

I've also noticed bulls are a lot more aggressive in Idaho when compared to Oregon, and I'm not sure why. I have not shot as many bulls as you but 2 in each state and many encounters along the way, and that's just what I have noticed.


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[elkyinzer]

I'm just the opposite, I can't get an elk to come into cow calls for the life of me. In your case it sounds like simple fight or flight. A smallish bull that has a herd for now, but knows he's far from the baddest dude on the mountain. He knows his best strategy is to run from confrontation.

 

[MT_Nate]

+1 on Joel Turner. Listen to this podcast closely...

http://www.sharpsticks.tv/003-sharp-sticks-joel-turner-part-1/

Look up JOEL turner on YouTube. His bull calling cow bugle works like a charm when a bull has cows and you're close. But then again, sometimes there's just nothing you can do

 

[AndyJ]

IMO the get in close then fire a challenge bugle is some of the worst calling advice out there. People need to think about what is being said in the interaction.

-You blow some cow calls. You, the cow, are announcing your presence and maybe that you are looking for a mate. The bull bugles. He is saying "hey ladies, I'm over here."
-You blow a locator bugle which is like a bull saying, "I'm right here, is anybody else out there?" The bull bugles back, "Someone is over here." That is all that is being said with a locator bugle. Ideally he wants you to continue on your way and leave him and his harem alone.

But you don't do that, you get really close and hit him with another bugle. You are telling that bull, that you want to find him to see if you can take what he has. He has what he wants, cows, and now he thinks you want his cows. He can stay and fight or take his cows and run. He isn't stupid. Why would he risk getting hurt and losing what he already has. A herd bull, and I would argue especially a mature, smart herd bull, will take his cows and leave 99.9% of the time. Bull elk fight HARD. Unlike deer, elk really look like they want to kill each other. I used to work with an old guy that had a saying that applies here,"A good run beats a bad fight any day."

If you want a bull to come in fighting, you need to find the bully or what I always called a predatory bull. The Bully is a herd bull that likes to steal cows from other bulls. They aren't too hard to find. First their bugles are ROUGH and they chuckle a lot. This is an aggressive bugle that is meant to let other bulls in the area know he means business and to announce to all the cows that the bull over their dreams is in the neighborhood. Second, he likes to cut off other bulls and you when you or another bull bugles. This is just a sign of dominance. I have found these bulls to be the most responsive to aggressive bugling. Don't worry about cow calling. He wants a fight. Bugle back with the nastiest bugle with chuckles you can do. Sometimes just chuckle. Cut him off every chance you get. Then, and here is the most important part, continually get closer to him while bugling, then turn around and slowly walk away while maintaining the aggressive bugles, make sure he follows you. I think walking away and downhill makes the bull think you are in over your head and are trying to look tough to escape the fight. WITH THE RIGHT BULL this works REALLY well.

Predator bulls are a little different. This is a bull that has no interest in a harem. He just wants to find a herd, beat up the herd bull, breed the cows and leave to find the next herd. Predator bulls, will close the distance fast to other bugles. He won't typically sound super aggressive but typically he will be a big bull with a typically rough bugle and he might throw out some occasional chuckles. The most telling characteristic of a predatory bull is how fast he will close the distance to other bugles. It will sound like he is running. With these bulls, you don't want to make him think you are too tough. Again, he will fight, but he would probably prefer a push over. Act like a four year old bull with his first harem.

In my experience, you can get a relaxed bull kind of worked up, but it is really hard to get him to the point where he wants a fight. But a bull looking for a fight will come in if he thinks he has something to gain.

 

[AndyJ]

I forgot to mention that bugle you heard right before he took his cows and left is not the bugle you want to hear. It's just the bugle you think you want to hear. Let me guess, it was RANK! you could probably hear the snot and spit blowing out his nose and mouth. It sounds like he is pissed and is about to tear off your way. THAT, my friend, is a roundup bugle. It wasn't directed at you. It was directed at his cows. That bugle means,"We're leaving. RIGHT NOW!!!!!!"

 

[wasatchcomm]

i will agree with the lip bawl i did this on a bull inside of 80 yards, it was really windy and i couldn't hear a dumptruck driving by me, he bugles and chuckled i screamed at him, he did it again i screamed at him again, all the time closing distance to about the 80 yard mark, he bugled again and i fired off the lip bawl as i had seen he had cows with him, never saw him at this point, after i lip bawled he went quiet, i was watching the trail i assumed he would come up, (remember the noisy wind) he came straight up the hill and within 2 minutes of me hitting him with the lip bawl he was standing about 5 yards behind me , i moved to look down the hill, and he busted, i never heard him come up behind me, after he left i about cried, i should have known he would draw a straight line between he and i and follow it, which he did...
great experience though.... like elk nut said, get ready, he's coming when you give them the lip bawl, he was right....
i would have tried that in the scenario you gave.(joel turner) they are referencing is the same its a bugle with a lip bawl, you are calling his ladies, not him. it will infuriate the bull, or its supposed to, In my experience it did just that. this was last week in Idaho...

 

[MAT]

I couldn't agree more AndyJ. All the aggressive elk calling out there by hunters only makes the bulls even more likely to turn and run based on learning the elk they thought were there are just guys with sharp sticks. The only way bugling works is if you are close enough the bull has no other options. That's what Joel Turner teaches. Another thing I see is guys using a locator bugles to find a bull, and once they do they keep bugling at the bull as they move in. All that says is I'm a bull looking for you, so no wonder they either shut up or move away. The secret I've learned in 20 years is to find elk, then get as close as possible before calling again.

IMO nothing has ruined elk hunting in popular public land OTC units like super aggressive elk calling (which ends up either killing the bull or busting the herd). Think about it, even if it works 10% of the time there are 9 other bulls that just got a major education. A few more of those and they know the game. And those bull pass on their genes to the next generation.

 

[DEHusker]

I know many many very seasoned elk hunters who live by the mantra..."if you ain't bugling, you ain't killing him." I have seen enough to know that is a very fair statement. IMO, the number one issue with using bugles is TIMING and ACCURACY/QUALITY OF THE BUGLE. If you have bad timing, no matter how good the bugle, the bulls will know it is not right. If you have good timing but your calls are horrible or you are using the wrong calls, the bull will know something is up. I also firmly believe that the timing of the rut has a lot to do with how effective calls are. Being aggressive early season when there is not much bugling is probably not the most effective way to go about things. I have learned a lot from other callers, Elknut, Rocky J, etc. I actually used Joel Turner's "bull calling cows bugle" to perfection this year as well. YOU MUST GET IN CLOSE FOR ANY OF THE AGGRESSIVE BUGLING TO WORK. If you are challenging a bull from 200 yards away, he'll scram. Challenge him or try to call over his cows from 80 yards or less and he's much more likely to come on over (50 yrds is even better). You must make it almost mandatory that he comes to "eliminate the intruder"...you. Nature has a remarkable way of making animals avoid conflict at all costs...if you keep this in mind you'll call better. I've bugled in bulls even in very heavily hunted OTC units. Sometimes I get their attention with bugles and then I go to other forms of calling such as raking, stomping, rock throwing, etc. If you are not confident in your bugling, by all means use any other tactic you can. Keep at it and learn as much as you can about elk vocalizations and it'll all come together!!
P.S. +2 on Joel Turner's advice. I didn't even know who he was until a couple months ago. However, while I do not agree with all his points, he does have some very valid advice. Look up his youtube stuff and watch it.
P.P.S Killing any elk is awesome and an incredible feat. Bringing in a bull with cow calls and killing him is a great way to get er done. However, once you call in a bull with bugling tactics...well...you'll be more addicted to this sport that you can possibly imagine!

 

[PJG]

Amen Andy.

Not a big fan of any calling inside 100 yards unless I am hunting in a perfect ambush situation, somewhere an elk has to get inside 30 yards in order to see where the call is coming from. An elk will look to see another elk inside 100 yards, if you call in these instances you are going to get beat 100 percent of the time, it doesn't matter how good the call is, bull or cow. When they expect to see an elk and they don't you are not going to get them to come any closer. A spike or calf might come right to the call but goodluck with a branch antler bull. Waving an antler or a decoy might help some, but they will use their eyes to pinpoint the call location. That's the biggest benefit of having a partner do the calling, being able to setup and get the bull into the range of the hunter.

 

[Whip1]

I read all the replies and the one thing that I think makes all the difference that I didnt read is to let the herd bed down. A bull or cow is a lot less likely to move the herd if they are bedded and comfortable. I swear this works. He really has a lot less options if you are close and the herd is bedded. Short screamy bugles (not to aggressive) with cow calls. Like a small bull with cows, I like to think of it as a small bull following the cows to the other herd bull (the one you are trying to kill), he is not trying to fight he is just following. The other bull will come in. It works for me.
Whip