Broadhead tuning & shooting form question

[mmccolloch]

Hey guys,

I've been a long time reader of the forum, but this will be my first time posting, so please take it easy on me. I'm pretty new to archery (started within the last 6 months,) but have been reading a ton about bow tuning & arrow tuning for quite some time. Also, I have a pretty severe case of OCD, so it's pretty important to me that I get my bow/arrows tuned as well as possible. My goal is to get this bow setup/tuned and to work my way up to shooting to extended ranges (50-60 yards ideally) so that this fall (2016) I can attempt to do an OTC elk hunt. I've scoured the internet & this forum for help with this issue, but it seems that there could be multiple issues so I want to leverage all of the great knowledge that's available on this forum. Any and all help would be greatly appreciated!

My setup is as follow:

Bow:
2015 Bear Traxx bow
338 fps (IBO)
29" DL
65lb draw weight
Whisker Biscuit arrow rest
shooting a Tru-Fire Edge release

Arrows:
30" GT Kinetic Kaos factory fletched arrows (measured from tip of outsert to throat of nock)
300 spine
no ballistic collar
100 grain Slick Trick Magnum broadheads
finished arrow weight is right around 455 grains with an FOC of about 10.5% last time I checked.
Arrow velocity of 270 FPS

Here is my issue:

at 20 yards, I can consistently shoot a 5 arrow 2-3" group with field points. ALL of my broadheads are hitting about 3" left of my field points at that distance. Obviously, this disparity gets worse as the yardage increases. My elevation seems to be right on, but they are all shooting left. I have tried Magnus Buzzcuts, Shuttle T's, & the Slick Trick Magnums all with the same results.

The Shuttle T's hit about 6" left at 20 yards. The interesting thing is that the shuttle T's that I tried are 125 grain, whereas all of the other broadheads that I've tried are 100 grains. Not sure if this info helps solve the problem or not?

I have ran my arrows through an arrow spinner & they all seem to be pretty well aligned. I'm not sure how much wobble is acceptable, but it is extremely minimal & it seems that it would be like splitting hairs to get any wobble out of these arrows.

Also, The other day, my bow was completely tuned, so I know that the cams are in time. The arrow rest was laser aligned & the nocking point was verified.

Questions that I have:

1. Is this a form issue? I shoot open handed with a pretty low torque grip. Could this be a release issue? I use the same anchor point every shot (first knuckle below ear & barely touch the string with my nose.)

2. Are my arrows over spined?

3. Should I Yoke tune? It doesn't seem like I have any cam lean & I would like to eliminate a form issue prior to yoke tuning so that I'm not just putting a bandaid on a form problem.

4. Do I need to tune my arrows more?

5. Do I need to micro adjust my rest?

Sorry for the long winded post fellas, but I want to make sure that all of the information is on the table so that you can assess the situation.

Thanks for all of your help in advance!!!

 

[BackcountryMT]

Hey guys,

I've been a long time reader of the forum, but this will be my first time posting, so please take it easy on me. I'm pretty new to archery (started within the last 6 months,) but have been reading a ton about bow tuning & arrow tuning for quite some time. Also, I have a pretty severe case of OCD, so it's pretty important to me that I get my bow/arrows tuned as well as possible. My goal is to get this bow setup/tuned and to work my way up to shooting to extended ranges (50-60 yards ideally) so that this fall (2016) I can attempt to do an OTC elk hunt. I've scoured the internet & this forum for help with this issue, but it seems that there could be multiple issues so I want to leverage all of the great knowledge that's available on this forum. Any and all help would be greatly appreciated!

My setup is as follow:

Bow:
2015 Bear Traxx bow
338 fps (IBO)
29" DL
65lb draw weight
Whisker Biscuit arrow rest
shooting a Tru-Fire Edge release

Arrows:
30" GT Kinetic Kaos factory fletched arrows (measured from tip of outsert to throat of nock)
300 spine
no ballistic collar
100 grain Slick Trick Magnum broadheads
finished arrow weight is right around 455 grains with an FOC of about 10.5% last time I checked.
Arrow velocity of 270 FPS

Here is my issue:

at 20 yards, I can consistently shoot a 5 arrow 2-3" group with field points. ALL of my broadheads are hitting about 3" left of my field points at that distance. Obviously, this disparity gets worse as the yardage increases. My elevation seems to be right on, but they are all shooting left. I have tried Magnus Buzzcuts, Shuttle T's, & the Slick Trick Magnums all with the same results.

The Shuttle T's hit about 6" left at 20 yards. The interesting thing is that the shuttle T's that I tried are 125 grain, whereas all of the other broadheads that I've tried are 100 grains. Not sure if this info helps solve the problem or not?

I have ran my arrows through an arrow spinner & they all seem to be pretty well aligned. I'm not sure how much wobble is acceptable, but it is extremely minimal & it seems that it would be like splitting hairs to get any wobble out of these arrows.

Also, The other day, my bow was completely tuned, so I know that the cams are in time. The arrow rest was laser aligned & the nocking point was verified.

Questions that I have:

1. Is this a form issue? I shoot open handed with a pretty low torque grip. Could this be a release issue? I use the same anchor point every shot (first knuckle below ear & barely touch the string with my nose.)

2. Are my arrows over spined?

3. Should I Yoke tune? It doesn't seem like I have any cam lean & I would like to eliminate a form issue prior to yoke tuning so that I'm not just putting a bandaid on a form problem.

4. Do I need to tune my arrows more?

5. Do I need to micro adjust my rest?

Sorry for the long winded post fellas, but I want to make sure that all of the information is on the table so that you can assess the situation.

Thanks for all of your help in advance!!!

A few things come to mind immediately. First, thanks for taking an interest in your equipment in tuning. Most guys would simply give up a throw on a mechanical...

1. I seriously doubt this is a form issue based on the fact that your broad heads are still grouping together, just not with the same POI. Typically when it builds down to form your going to see some very erratic arrow flight.

2. It's basically impossible to have an arrow that's over spined. I am very curious on your arrow length, though, seems insanely long. While at full draw where is the front (end of insert) of the arrow at in relation to the riser? Shortening your arrow will increase spine (not harmful) and increase FOC (very beneficial).

3. Yoke tuning may be necessary but it's hard to say from behind the screen. The big thing to keep in mind is that yoke tuning cams is done for a full draw situation, not at rest. Some cams will show pre lean at rest and come back straight when drawn. Has this bow been shot through paper? I know not a long of guys think paper tuning is necessary but I've never had to walk back or french tune a bow after paper tuning at 6ft and 15 yards.

3a. While not impossible to shoot with, whisker biscuits are VERY unforgiving to any form, tuning, spine, etc.. issues. Just something else to consider.

4. As stated in number two, I think you can shorten those arrows a bit.

5. You may need to tune your rest a little. In most cases, on any modern bow that is tuned with is a properly spined arrow there is no reason a bow won't shoot with a rest that is set to perfect center shot. Even more so on a bow with yokes.

A few more thoughts. Sorry to be the bad news guy, but Bear strings aren't very good and stretch like crazy. They can be tuned one day and out the next. How did the shop tune the bow? Draw board? In our shop, once a bow is 100% tuned we will mark the cams with a paint pen on either side of the limb so we can monitor and cam movement/string stretch.I would seriously look at good set of aftermarket strings before season. Don't believe what anyone says about fix blade broadhead flight as ANY modern head will fly with your FP's out to 50 yards no problem. I shot my ST Standards and QAD Exodus heads out to 80 last year with no issues.

 

[Asbell]

Move your rest a little bit to the right. It doesn't take much. Don't be scared to adjust things, that's how you learn. Just mark where it is before you adjust that way if it gets worse you can always put it back.

 

[5MilesBack]

I'm not sure how much wobble is acceptable

NONE! And you say you have OCD........

That's one reason why I don't like the outserts or half-outs or whatever they want to call them. I only use HIT inserts in my arrows, they always align perfectly.

Lots of stuff going on here.......WB rest, what kind of fletching? Need to adjust your rest (maybe), and/or yoke tune to get them together. However, with the rest you're always going to have fletching contact. Depending on the fletching, it can be much worse or not as bad......but will always be there.

Arrow spine.......as soon as I saw your setup, I was thinking 340's or 350's would work great but 300's shouldn't be a big problem either. Try shooting a bare shaft and see what you get. And on top of all that.......yes, it could also be a form issue.

 

[mmccolloch]

BackcountryMT:
Thanks for the positive feedback and the suggestions. I really appreciate it! I'm pretty much addicted to this archery thing at this point so I really enjoy getting to know my gear & learning to tune. Giving up on fixed blades isn't going to happen. I want to make sure that my bow is tuned properly & I also want to be able to use my setup in any state in the country regardless of the regs on fixed vs. mechanical broadheads.

As far as arrow length is concerned, the base of my broadhead is about even with the front of the riser. I'm sure this could be shortened, but can I modify my existing arrows, or will that cause issues with the glue/inserts? Also, if I'm spined correctly, does shortening my arrows gain me anything other than FOC? Will FOC have any effect on accuracy at longer ranges, or is it just more beneficial for penetration?

It's pretty tough to tell if I have any cam lean at full draw, it doesn't look like it, but I can't be 100% sure either.

As far as strings & rests go, I'm with you on your comments. I've already started researching new strings & drop aways. In fact, that's why I took my bow to the shop in the first place. I noticed that my cams were out of time due to the crazy amount of string stretch that has happened since I got my bow.

The shop pressed the bow & took a turn or two (not sure) out of my control cable to get my top cam to rotate more as the string stop on top wasn't hitting at the same time as the bottom cams string stop. They then put the bow in a bow vise, plumbed & leveled it, & adjusted the nocking point (with levels) & then used a laser to align the arrow/center shot. I'm just getting my feet wet with the tuning side of things, so I'm not sure if they missed anything, or if there are additional steps that need to be taken to verify proper tune. I need to shoot through paper at extended ranges to figure out what is going on. At this point, I've only shot through paper right after I got my bow, but those results aren't valid anymore since the bow has been re-tuned.


Asbell:

Thanks for the comment, I'm going to mark my rest & play around with the settings.

5MilesBack:

To your comment, I guess all I can say is I don't know what I don't know. How should I go about eliminating the minimal amount of wobble that I have? Mark the high spot and try and press/bend the broadhead/insert back to square? Also, do you have any tips for the best methodology for measuring & correcting the wobble? I'm not sure what type of fletching comes from the Gold Tip factory, but they look to be pretty straight, maybe a touch of offset.

I'm looking into building my next set of arrows and will give the HITs a try because I agree, I don't like the outserts.

Any input on what type of form issue it could be???


Does anybody find it curious that when I shoot 100 grain heads the arrows group 3" left at 20 yards, but when I shoot 125 grain heads, they group 6" left at 20 yards?

If I need to adjust the yoke or adjust the rest, which should I do first?

 

[Manosteel]

Without seeing you shoot it could definetly be a form issue (grip/alignment/anchor/ shoulder rotation). At this point, I would focus on extending your shooting ability and range. Nothing wrong with shooting at 5 yards in the garage to see if you can get 30 arrows in a row to hit the same hole. Then do the same at 10 yards. Groups will shrink at 20/30/40/50. Than start tinkering with your yokes, my preference or your rests left/right adjustments in 1/16" movements.

 

[mmccolloch]

Without seeing you shoot it could definetly be a form issue (grip/alignment/anchor/ shoulder rotation). At this point, I would focus on extending your shooting ability and range. Nothing wrong with shooting at 5 yards in the garage to see if you can get 30 arrows in a row to hit the same hole. Then do the same at 10 yards. Groups will shrink at 20/30/40/50. Than start tinkering with your yokes, my preference or your rests left/right adjustments in 1/16" movements.

Thanks for the advice. I do see a ton of garage shooting in my near future. If it is a form thing, which it may very well be, than I guess I'm consistently bad, haha!

 

[mmccolloch]

Does anyone else have any suggestions? I know there is a ton of knowledge out there on this subject. Thanks!

 

[boom]

Broadhead tuning & shooting form question

Since your OCD, get an arrow trimmer tool. You spin the alum insert on it and it trims the end square. I've seen some of my OCD friends use their hands to tweak the broadhead until they spin perfect. I just spin mine like a top on a flat surface. G5 makes the trimmer tool I have.

Then I would scooch the rest to the right a tad.

Have you shot the bow thru paper? It's a good jumping off point.

 

[jmez]

Based on your post I would guess you have a grip issue right off the bat. A big misconception, and one that I had for years, an open hand is actually a high torque grip. If your hand is open you are engaging muscles to keep your hand open. This induces torque into your grip. Can you post a picture of your grip at full draw, if your fingers are extended you need to change this. I would start here before doing anything else.

 

[mmccolloch]

Based on your post I would guess you have a grip issue right off the bat. A big misconception, and one that I had for years, an open hand is actually a high torque grip. If your hand is open you are engaging muscles to keep your hand open. This induces torque into your grip. Can you post a picture of your grip at full draw, if your fingers are extended you need to change this. I would start here before doing anything else.

I will try and get a picture tonight and post it up. I've played around with multiple grip types since I'm pretty new to archery. I've tried both the open hand as well at the completely relaxed hand with my finger tips barely resting on the front of the riser. Thanks for the tip!

 

[5MilesBack]

As for your arrows.......if they were mine I would cut the ends off with the outserts in them. At 30" they are plenty long enough to cut them off and install HIT's. Those outserts bend or are machined badly and you'll never get that wobble out. At 20 or 30 yards it's not an issue, but at 60 it can made a difference with fixed heads.

Most BH's that I've shot will spin perfectly without doing anything extra to them. And I agree....there could very well be a grip issue. Try torquing the bow both ways and see what happens to your BH impacts. But I don't know the bow you're shooting, so be careful to not derail the bow. That's bad.

 

[BruinPoint]

Just a few thoughts I had reading through:

Start with the easiest/cheapest things first. Try a different grip for a couple sessions and see how your impacts change. If there's still a problem try changing your anchor point a little (the string may be brushing your face on release). If no improvement move the rest a little to the right.

One thing you left out was fletching type (plastic/feathers, length, helical/offset/straight). With a whisker biscuit that can make a difference. If I used one it would be with 4" feathers straight fetched. The WB will chew them up but they're a lot more forgiving.

With the heavier broadheads being farther off it sounds like a borderline weak spine. See if a lighter broadhead does anything and if so adjust accordingly.

 

[kodiakfly]

Based on your post I would guess you have a grip issue right off the bat. A big misconception, and one that I had for years, an open hand is actually a high torque grip. If your hand is open you are engaging muscles to keep your hand open. This induces torque into your grip. Can you post a picture of your grip at full draw, if your fingers are extended you need to change this. I would start here before doing anything else.

I agree with this whole-heartedly. This is one of the biggest misconceptions in all of archery.

That said, I don't think you have a form issue, but it is possible. First thought is I'd shoot it though paper and start there. If you don't know how your arrow is flying and consistently how it's flying, you're just guessing. Yes, results at the target come into play, but you can get a poorly tuned bow sighted in. Best to get a properly tuned bow sighted in.

 

[mmccolloch]

Alright guys, I have an update on this.

I had my wife take some pictures of my grip, draw, anchor points, stance, etc.

I changed my grip from being open hand to fingers closed & completely relaxed. The new grip is extremely comfortable.

I'm pretty sure it came down to a form issue. Turns out, over the course of shooting for the past couple of months, for whatever reason, my stance has slowly crept open just a touch (I'm a right handed shooter.) I think this was causing me to pull left during the shot. I could get away with this with field points, but with broadheads, it was magnifying the problem. I squared up my stance and my broadhead groups improved almost immediately. So much so that I cut the fletchings off a an arrow. As of right now, my broadheads & field points are grouping together.

I also took a paint pen and marked all of my screws, rest, cams, etc. so I'll be able to see if anything from a settings / timing standpoint moves over time.

The other thing that I did was spin a bunch of my arrows again to find the arrows / broadhead combinations that have absolutely NO wobble.

This theory was only verified out to about 15 yards because that is the farthest that I can shoot at home. This weekend I'm hoping to extend my range out to at least 30 yards to verify these findings.

Next Steps:

1.) Make sure my form & stance is squared away and make it 2nd nature.
2.) Setup a paper tuning station & paper tune / bare shaft tune (now that I have an arrow with no fletchings) out to extended ranges to verify that my bow is properly tuned.

Thanks everyone for all of the help & insight!

 

[BackcountryMT]

Glad your getting it all on track! Keep us updated

 

[Dos Perros]

While we're on this topic....

At 50 yards my G5 Montecs were grouping about 5 inches low and left of my field points at 50 yards. I personally found this annoying, but my local shop told me that only 5" I'm ahead of the game and to just gang adjust and be done with it. Thoughts?

 

[Jason Snyder]

While we're on this topic....

At 50 yards my G5 Montecs were grouping about 5 inches low and left of my field points at 50 yards. I personally found this annoying, but my local shop told me that only 5" I'm ahead of the game and to just gang adjust and be done with it. Thoughts?

You need a different shop. I'd find a way to fix the problem.

 

[Jason Snyder]

Based on your post I would guess you have a grip issue right off the bat. A big misconception, and one that I had for years, an open hand is actually a high torque grip. If your hand is open you are engaging muscles to keep your hand open. This induces torque into your grip. Can you post a picture of your grip at full draw, if your fingers are extended you need to change this. I would start here before doing anything else.

This was exactly my first thought. Too many times I hear that "if it was grip or form you wouldn't be consistent". Not true at all.

Come to full draw sometime and change the way your hand grips the bow. You can easily see how the string angle changes as it comes off of the cam/idler wheel. No amount of tuning will correct this problem.

 

[muledhunter]

I would start by yoke tuning. But a heads up. Basically unless you are shooting a "shoot through" system you will have cam lean. I would have everything center shot and yoke tune through paper. Assuming your bow has split yokes top and bottom. After I shot a hole I would walk back or French tune out to 60 or whatever you feel comfortable at