Bow Strong

[Kevin Dill]

Shooting a stickbow obviously means no mechanical advantage. If I'm going to get to full draw, the only thing getting me there are the muscles required to do it. That equates to strength. Without sufficient strength I will either be unable to make full draw or will be straining (maybe with muscle tremors or shaking) as I reach my anchor. Being 'bow strong' is a requirement for me to comfortably and calmly handle my hunting bow all the way to anchor. It took me years to accept that...though I hunted with a 65# bow...I wasn't really strong enough to manage it correctly. This led to a host of shooting problems. Oh I killed animals with great regularity, but I wasn't getting my 62" recurve to full draw, which for me is 28-3/4". If I tried to make absolute full draw I could manage it but my muscles were twitching and my brain had my release hand hotwired to dump the string instantly.

Came the day....I grew tired of this and decided to get strong and take full control of the bow. I shot at 5 yards incessantly and did nothing but discipline myself to hit anchor and hold. For me that's a holding weight of about 64 pounds with the longbow I shoot. I kept doing it and kept slowing down my draw. Try drawing your hunting bow at 1/3 speed and see what I mean. It took time but 'bow strong' happened. Today I can pull my 60#+ bows to full draw very slowly without a tremor, twitch or shake. I can hit my anchor and then consider how long to hold. My release is clean, and that leads me to the next thing....

Having the strength to confidently manage the bow at full-max draw has allowed me to focus on improving all the other pieces of a shot sequence. Release, follow-through, steady arm, etc. Without even trying for better accuracy, it happened. I found myself having to back up to keep from shattering arrows. Please don't read any of this as a boast because it's not. My point is only to relate what happens when you are absolutely strong enough to be in total command of the bow. There is no downside to strength when you shoot traditional equipment.

And with that, I'm interested to hear your thoughts, opinions and experiences in this realm.

 

[sneaky]

Heavier draw weights tend to disguise form flaws, lighter weights exacerbate form flaws. I feel a majority of traditional shooters are over-bowed. One of my favorite things to do is go to traditional shoots and watch guys on the practice bales. Short drawing, snap shooting, not pulling through... all symptoms of being over-bowed. I don't understand the leaning forward into the draw-type stance that a lot of shooters employ either. They are self-shortening their draw and power stroke. Fred Asbell and his swing draw nonsense has ruined a lot of potentially good shooters as well.

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[Superkodiak38]

I went through the whole "evolution" started with a SuperKodiak 55 @ 28, (I draw 30.5) and was able to shoot fairly well but not consistently. I was at a shoot one year and met a guy who was willing to help me out and I was willing to listen ( not often in life do those two points converge) I changed everything, stance, anchor, found back tension ( kinda like finding religion but not exactly) and I went to a 45 @30 long bow. Strength has never been a issue for me but dropping weight I was able to slow down and feel things without the same urgency to get rid of it and that allowed me to work on form at the bale and build muscle memory. I am currently hunting with 51 @ 30.5, I hunted for 8 years with the 45@30 bow and having a longer draw I think it is very important to have a bow tillered for that draw. My current is an ILF Titan III from Tradtech / LAS with long limbs ( recurve) making a 64" bow and wouldn't consider going any shorter than that.

I agree with Sneaky and everyone I talk to that wants to shoot a longbow or recurve gets the same advice, 40 -45 pounds tillered for your draw!

Being able to be in control and run your shot is the only way to be consistent and consistency is accuracy.

 

[Kevin Dill]

I should mention a couple other thoughts.

Although I like MY form and technique with the draw/shot sequence, I don't think it's the only way to shoot a bow. I do believe consistency in technique matters, and I absolutely think strength (plenty of it) is an undervalued commodity. If you're more than strong enough to manage your chosen bow, you'll shoot better no matter what form you use. What isn't good is when a lack of sufficient strength begins to dictate what you'll do with your form and shot sequence. If you're at that point, you can choose to either get stronger or get a lower poundage bow. Getting stronger was my route. I think a guy starting out at this is well advised to keep his bow poundage low until he understands how to shoot correctly.

I practice with my bow more or less vertical, in an upright posture. If I bend at the waist or cant the bow significantly I can instantly feel different muscles come into use and I lose a good bit of back strength...meaning my arms and shoulders must handle more of the poundage. I practice this because most of my game shots are not taken from an upright, bow-vertical, Olympic posture. From a treestand I'm typically leaning over to make a 12 yard shot. From the ground I'm often kneeling and/or dealing with some form of cover around me. I have no choice but to lean (left, right or forward) and cant the bow. So I practice slow-drawing the longbow to full draw from those positions too.

What I don't do at the bale is to ever short-draw or snap shoot. Those techniques have their place in the field, but not at the bale. I work like a dog to avoid bad habits with the bow. The only time I stand and shoot 3 or more arrows at the bale is when I'm building muscle. Beyond that point, I'm a one-arrow guy. I try to get it right with that one arrow....pull it....repeat. I think this allows my mind and muscles to slow down and focus 100% on every shot. I'm not into arrow groups these days. I am into being more than strong enough to pull a 60 pound bow to total full draw and anchor with cold muscles.

 

[LostArra]

Good stuff.

I'm also a one arrow practice guy EXCEPT when I practice from a treestand where I have 5 different 3D targets set up at different distances. So I slowly shoot sets of 5 arrows with plenty of time between shots, one at each target before climbing down.

With the performance of modern recurves and longbows there is really no need to get TOO heavy for bowhunting American game. I know Kevin is a moose killer and I can see that being an animal, along with brown/grizzly bears, with the highest weight requirement just to get some velocity on heavy arrows. I don't ever try to dictate what "too heavy" is for another hunter, I just hunt the heaviest bow I can completely control.

Control the shot or the shot will control you. A few times during practice I make a point of slowly coming to full draw and then letting down. I think this mimics a real hunting situation and focuses on controlling the shot. It's also good exercise. If you have hunted wild pigs you know that they are in constant motion and shot opportunities come and go quickly. I think one of the most common bowhunting mistakes is rushing a shot due to the animal's behavior or position and it's made worse by shooting too much weight and short draw/snap shooting.

>>I'm not into arrow groups these days. I am into being more than strong enough to pull a 60 pound bow to total full draw and anchor with cold muscles.<<

Ditto on the groups. As I've gotten older (almost 66) I try to avoid "cold muscles" when shooting. Like any physical exercise, a warmup of joints, tendons and especially the muscles making up the rotator cuff is helpful for me to make the first shot a good one. I had major shoulder surgery 25 years ago so things don't move perfectly even on a good day and warming up makes a big difference. My warmup routine only takes a minute or two and I can even do it while in a treestand. On long hunts I'll do it multiple times throughout the day.

Bottom line is shooting a hunting bow is a physical exercise and requires some areas of unique strength. Do what it takes to be strong enough for your bow.

 

[jorgensen.travis]

I’ve shot arrows over a chronograph, and have found that the biggest factor that effects speed is the weight of the bow. All things equal with the arrow and draw length, the material and design of the bow don’t have much effect (in my experience). I know that the placement of the arrow is the most important part, and 45 pounds is enough to kill most things in most situations, but I just want to point out that going down in weight is not free.


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[Texasraised]

I’ve shot arrows over a chronograph, and have found that the biggest factor that effects speed is the weight of the bow. All things equal with the arrow and draw length, the material and design of the bow don’t have much effect (in my experience). I know that the placement of the arrow is the most important part, and 45 pounds is enough to kill most things in most situations, but I just want to point out that going down in weight is not free.


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This is true, but not entirely. Obviously you are correct with the same arrow weight a heavier bow will be faster. However arrow weight is also incredibly important in determining arrow speed. Engineers of the archery industry have long ago agreed that 10 grains of arrow weight per pound of draw weight is a good rule of thumb for setting up a hunting weight bow.
If I take my preferred hunting weight 50#@28” and a 500 grain arrow and shave 10 pounds off the bow I should also shave 100 grains of arrow weight. These bows will shoot almost identical speeds.

Most guys that are shooting super heavy bows 65#+ have arrow setups that are too light and it gives the perception that the bow is much faster. More power to them if they have found a setup that flies well and they can comfortably shoot it.

I will also say, heavy weights are not necessary for all but the biggest game.
I hunt elk successfully with 50#. It’s more than enough and I can shoot it comfortably even without a rigorous training routine.

Im not hating on heavy bow guys at all one of my buddies shoots a 65#bow that I made for him.


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[Kevin Dill]

It seems like many discussions about being strong (enough) to shoot a bow confidently often end up suggesting a guy might shoot a lower poundage bow. That's true to an extent, and easier to do when purchasing a new bow perhaps for the first time. It doesn't really address those who might be shooting a 50-60 pound bow and aren't quite physically strong enough to master it. Some won't want to give up poundage for various reasons, myself being an example. I'm sure I could kill a moose with a 50 pound bow, but I think there's no margin of error in terms of arrow energy. Anyway, you'd probably agree there are a number of healthy guys out there who would be better off to get stronger with their current bows. Dropping poundage will work, but at the cost of a new bow, arrows and whatnot. Better muscles are likely free, and come with no downside.

I think where I'm going with this is that the remedy for marginal strength isn't always found in a lower poundage bow, different type bow, etc. If you want or need to shoot a bow weight that challenges you physically, you can do it by gaining strength. It's no different than developing and maintaining the muscles needed to do other physical tasks. You'd advise any would-be sheep hunter to get his legs and cardiovascular system in top shape before the hunt. I see shooting a bow in the same light. Whatever your bow, having the strength to easily make full draw, anchor and hold (without a muscle meltdown) is a major plus.

 

[KJH]

Good point Kevin.

I would not give up shooting a higher poundage recurve because I can't handle it. I can tell when I haven't been shooting enough (life gets in the way sometimes) and then with a 3-4 weeks of strength training plus 20-40 arrows a day I'm back to where I need to be. I shoot a 62 lb bow much better than a lower weight... No idea why. Going lower isn't an option for me for a few reasons. I succumbed to the theory of trying a lower weight once. Didn't help me at all, although I'm probably not the quality of traditional archer most of those on this forum are. I'm really happy with where I am, but strength is the key for me to get to where I want to be.

Your comment about "Better muscles are likely free, and come with no downside" and "Whatever your bow, having the strength to easily make full draw, anchor and hold (without a muscle meltdown) is a major plus" is dead on.

 

[Joseph08]

Shooting a stickbow obviously means no mechanical advantage. If I'm going to get to full draw, the only thing getting me there are the muscles required to do it. That equates to strength. Without sufficient strength I will either be unable to make full draw or will be straining (maybe with muscle tremors or shaking) as I reach my anchor. Being 'bow strong' is a requirement for me to comfortably and calmly handle my hunting bow all the way to anchor. It took me years to accept that...though I hunted with a 65# bow...I wasn't really strong enough to manage it correctly. This led to a host of shooting problems. Oh I killed animals with great regularity, but I wasn't getting my 62" recurve to full draw, which for me is 28-3/4". If I tried to make absolute full draw I could manage it but my muscles were twitching and my brain had my release hand hotwired to dump the string instantly.

Came the day....I grew tired of this and decided to get strong and take full control of the bow. I shot at 5 yards incessantly and did nothing but discipline myself to hit anchor and hold. For me that's a holding weight of about 64 pounds with the longbow I shoot. I kept doing it and kept slowing down my draw. Try drawing your hunting bow at 1/3 speed and see what I mean. It took time but 'bow strong' happened. Today I can pull my 60#+ bows to full draw very slowly without a tremor, twitch or shake. I can hit my anchor and then consider how long to hold. My release is clean, and that leads me to the next thing....

Having the strength to confidently manage the bow at full-max draw has allowed me to focus on improving all the other pieces of a shot sequence. Release, follow-through, steady arm, etc. Without even trying for better accuracy, it happened. I found myself having to back up to keep from shattering arrows. Please don't read any of this as a boast because it's not. My point is only to relate what happens when you are absolutely strong enough to be in total command of the bow. There is no downside to strength when you shoot traditional equipment.

And with that, I'm interested to hear your thoughts, opinions and experiences in this realm.

As a beginner, i used this Survival Archery Arrow 26 Inch
. Initially, it was challenging but gradually i got used to it.

 

[GLB]

Using enough bow that you can comfortably draw and hold has many advantages imho. I have found that my draw length had increased over 1" by going to a lighter bow. Shooting a bow that is too heavy for you will compress your muscles slightly and shorten your draw length if you even get to full draw. Plus longevity in shooting. I like to shoot and I shoot bows in the low to mid 50s that I can easily handle.

 

[Beendare]

I would say that its the heavier bow that exacerbates form flaws with me.

The things killing animals with a stickbow has taught me;

You don't need to shoot fast arrows

You don't need to shoot high poundage

A very efficient BH makes even light setups extremely lethal on game.

Good shooting form is crucial....better to shoot a lighter bow well than a heavier bow poorly

Just about every archer I know over the age of 60 has had some sort of problems/surgery related to shooting heavy bows


I'm a pretty big guy and now [after elbow surgery] I'm back to where I can shoot a heavy bow.........but I have no desire to be shooting heavy 70# bows when I can kill anything in NA with a 45,50,55# bow.

 

[Tradtiger]

I wouldn't want to tell someone else that they need to shoot a heavier bow than they feel comfortable with. And I agree that form can be more easily developed with lighter weight equipment -- in fact, it actually takes a smoother release to achieve good arrow flight with a light bow.

I just was reminded of this last fact last weekend shooting a 3D round with a borrowed longbow that only drew about 55# at my drawlength -- compared to the 73#28" recurve I normally use. I went to the heavy bow as part of process of trying to get satisfactory speed and trajectory for hunting with the heavy arrows I had decided on years before. A 50# Ben Pearson Javelina (which my Dad has gotten in the early '60's) was nice but the arrows were very slow -- like 140 fps. I watched two different does duck the arrows at 19 and 20 yards. The next bow was a Pearson also -- but 55#. Quite a bit quicker, but still too much "arch" in the archery for what I wanted.

Finally, I got a Jay Weathers custom recurve that's 73#@ 28 (I draw about 27-1/2") and that shoots my heavy arrows quick, fast and in a hurry. My arrows through all this have been 680-grains (with 400 grains up front). Yes, I believe the Ashby research. Certainly, perfect placement doesn't necessitate a "buffalo" arrow for whitetail, for instance. I was glad to have my set-up on a 238-pound hog, though -- penetrating a half inch of gristle "shield" and breaking two ribs to penetrate lethally for a short recovery. Whitetails move; an initially "perfect" shot could easily hit bone if the critter moves, and then the momentum of a heavier arrow -- plus a single-bevel broadhead could be very helpful.

I'm no weightlifter or big, bad dude. And just started getting the senior discount at the golf course, actually. To me, the key to drawing a bow with a little heft is to engage the back. The drawside scapula should do most of the work. To feel this, think of holding two bags of groceries in your arms and close a car door with the back of your draw arm. That's the motion. When your back is doing the work, it's easy. Forearm should be relaxed.

Hope this is helpful to someone. Even if not wanting to shoot a heavier bow, engaging the back muscles will make shooting a lighter bow that much easier and allow even better attention to form.

 

[LostArra]

I wouldn't want to tell someone else that they need to shoot a heavier bow than they feel comfortable with. And I agree that form can be more easily developed with lighter weight equipment -- in fact, it actually takes a smoother release to achieve good arrow flight with a light bow.

I just was reminded of this last fact last weekend shooting a 3D round with a borrowed longbow that only drew about 55# at my drawlength -- compared to the 73#28" recurve I normally use. I went to the heavy bow as part of process of trying to get satisfactory speed and trajectory for hunting with the heavy arrows I had decided on years before. A 50# Ben Pearson Javelina (which my Dad has gotten in the early '60's) was nice but the arrows were very slow -- like 140 fps. I watched two different does duck the arrows at 19 and 20 yards. The next bow was a Pearson also -- but 55#. Quite a bit quicker, but still too much "arch" in the archery for what I wanted.

Finally, I got a Jay Weathers custom recurve that's 73#@ 28 (I draw about 27-1/2") and that shoots my heavy arrows quick, fast and in a hurry. My arrows through all this have been 680-grains (with 400 grains up front). Yes, I believe the Ashby research. Certainly, perfect placement doesn't necessitate a "buffalo" arrow for whitetail, for instance. I was glad to have my set-up on a 238-pound hog, though -- penetrating a half inch of gristle "shield" and breaking two ribs to penetrate lethally for a short recovery. Whitetails move; an initially "perfect" shot could easily hit bone if the critter moves, and then the momentum of a heavier arrow -- plus a single-bevel broadhead could be very helpful.

I'm no weightlifter or big, bad dude. And just started getting the senior discount at the golf course, actually. To me, the key to drawing a bow with a little heft is to engage the back. The drawside scapula should do most of the work. To feel this, think of holding two bags of groceries in your arms and close a car door with the back of your draw arm. That's the motion. When your back is doing the work, it's easy. Forearm should be relaxed.

Hope this is helpful to someone. Even if not wanting to shoot a heavier bow, engaging the back muscles will make shooting a lighter bow that much easier and allow even better attention to form.

What is the arrow speed now with the 73# bow?

 

[Tradtiger]

What is the arrow speed now with the 73# bow?

Haven't actually chrono'ed it, but I believe it's in the 190s. (Basing this off what the original owner said to expect. Memory could be faulty.)

Edit: contacted orginal bow owner, and he advised that speed at my 27" drawlength is probably in the 180s, although, he pointed out that the arrow had plenty of penetration based on 20-yard testing into a thick-walled plastic barrel.

https://discussions.texasbowhunter.com/forums/showthread.php?t=681723&highlight=penetration

Check out Post 26 pics for the penetration of the arrow and bow I am referencing (it says 700-grain arrow, but is actually a 680-grain arrow).


Also, look a little further (to Post 30) for more details about the bow, which did come from Rick Barbee. When I bought it from him, he modestly pointed out that it was a "shooter" and that he had won his "first" state (Texas) championship with it.

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[ethan]

Lots of good thoughts here! I can’t say I’ve ever seriously suffered with target panick but after looking moredeeply into shot sequence and proper form I realized I wasn’t using back tension. After 20 years of shooting traditional bows a ton I put a clicker on my bow and have been working for several months now on expeanding and using proper back tension. I’ve come to use the clicker more like an interruption in my shot process that just lets me know the “draw part” is over and to transition into the “back tension part”. I probably didn’t explain this well, but it’s made a big difference and I’m seeing it pay off. I can really tell a difference in accuracy at shots over 20 yards.

All that being said, I think it’s good to experiment with different techniques after hunting season and implement what works for you and what doesn’t.