Blind bale shooting....do it!

[Jason Snyder]

True..... but we are talking practice routine to GET that first shot. I have friends that were snipers way back when...and a guy i know here local from Tracy that is the reigning Natl 1,000 yd rifle champ [at least last year- i haven't seen him this yr]

These guys do blind bale....but they call it "Dry fire"- grin

Excellent point. There are some very good nuggets of wisdom in this thread from PJG and Kevin Dill.

 

[justinspicher]

I've always thought compounds were way more difficult than my stickbow.

I'm not willing to get into a debate about snipers and how they do anything on a forum.

At any rate though, I think we can all agree that practice is important, regardless of how it's done. What works for one dude won't for another.

 

[Kevin Dill]

The very best bow shots make it look rather effortless. So do the best golfers, quarterbacks, snipers, and 3-point ballers. Behind all that effortless-looking performance is a lot of practice. A lot of that practice is about form and fundamentals. Golfers work on everything up to the point of actual hitting, mainly so there is no distraction from the ball and subsequent accuracy. It's the same principle which works in BB shooting. Of course some guys are naturally gifted and can get by with little practice. I congratulate that. Some of us who really do want more than one accurate arrow will benefit from repeated BB practice to build form and ingrain it into the shot. There is no down side to it...BB practice or the ability to smack 3 arrows together time and again at 25 yards.

A simple bow is just that. It makes no errors. The complexity is found in the bowman. The act of shooting seems objectively simple but as we've all heard....the devil is in the details. Little things spread shots out. Now, I don't advocate breaking down the shot into a 6 page thesis. I like to keep it simple, too. But sometimes I see a guy who is really, really struggling and nothing he does produces repeatable accuracy. That may be a guy who benefits from a form rebuild and it starts even before BB use. I was a one-shot wonder for a long time. I'd have spells of great accuracy and then poor accuracy. I grew tired of it, so I totally rebuilt my shooting form with hunting (which is all I do) in mind. The BB was an essential part of that, and I shot only bb for almost 6 solid weeks. I learned to slow draw....very slow. I learned to find anchor and hold as needed. I reached a point of total and complete confidence in my mastery of the bow...that being a 65# longbow. Only then did I back up 5 steps and shoot. This went on all summer and by the end I was a different shooter with 100% total shot control and confidence...and I still tell people I never worry or care what the arrow does. It does the best things when I let it instead of when I control it.

Has it worked? Yes...for me. My last ten big game kills have been one arrow affairs and I've watched every animal go down in sight. That actually amazes me and is the only reason I mention it. Finally...I'm only an advocate of BB for those looking to improve or problem-solve. The guys who are satisfied and happy with their shooting wouldn't enjoy that process at all.

 

[Jason Snyder]

I've always thought compounds were way more difficult than my stickbow.
.

With all due respect, developing proper form and working through a proper shot sequence execution is really no different from one weapon platform to another, longbow, recurve, compound, etc. They look different, but good mechanics and repeatability are independent of all the other junk.

 

[Beendare]

With all due respect, developing proper form and working through a proper shot sequence execution is really no different from one weapon platform to another, longbow, recurve, compound, etc. They look different, but good mechanics and repeatability are independent of all the other junk.

That may be true in theory.... but look at all of the guys that have mastered other weapon platforms ..... And struggle or completely give up with a stickbow.

 

[justinspicher]

All good points. It makes sense when I think about it. The less I concentrate, the better I shoot.

 

[Kevin Dill]

With all due respect, developing proper form and working through a proper shot sequence execution is really no different from one weapon platform to another, longbow, recurve, compound, etc. They look different, but good mechanics and repeatability are independent of all the other junk.

That may be true in theory.... but look at all of the guys that have mastered other weapon platforms ..... And struggle or completely give up with a stickbow.

By golly I think both of you are right. The principles of achieving accuracy remain basically the same through many activities, but some of them are infinitely more difficult to perfect. Compounds, firearms, crossbows...they don't require the shooter to be managing the tension of 40 to 70 pounds of effort at the critical moment of shot execution. Hand any compound shooter a compound requiring him to manage 60 pounds at full draw and watch what happens to his accuracy. The physical strength component of a recurve or longbow is the primary reason guys can't shoot them dependably. There are other factors, but that one is the greatest impediment. Gaining the strength to fully manage your bow to full draw and stable anchor is not given enough attention. Some guys are just not physically capable of handling their bow.

 

[TurkeyBowMaster]

I ripped off about 5 good shots today from 15 yards...good clean release and follow through...arrows hitting where I looked. I walked up close and shot a bb...punched it!!! I put so much pressure on myself over the summer and did so much bb practice during that time that I think I imprinted bad habits into bb shooting. It all stemmed from wanting so badly to be very accurate before heading out west. The closer September got the worse I shot...it ended up being a complete meltdown and I was relieved when I threw it down and decided I just needed to my compound.

After returning home there was less pressure to shoot good, and I picked it back up and tried it again. I really worked on a relaxed release and practiced that by short drawing because anchoring the way I did all summer only triggered the same bad release that plagued me all summer. Somehow I got it turned around and now am shooting fairly good. Still got work to do and reading threads like this gives me some ideas on what to work on. Thanks for taking the time to contribute.

 

[TurkeyBowMaster]

I have trouble with the whole "not caring" where the arrow hits. I realize there are some hard core trad guys who are going to hunt with trad no matter how bad they shoot. I'm not one of them. My goal is to shoot good enough bwith the recurve that the benefits of shooting a recurve make it the superior tool for the job. I think the whole not caring thing could be worded better. During the shot, the part we control, the focus should be on the present.. not the past or future. Once the arrow leaves the bow it is in the future. Good follow through is a result of doing things right when the arrow is still in the bow. Everything after that is just mind games, which may not be a bad thing. Al Henderson recommended pulling your best arrow last and remembering the feeling ofbtje shot that delivered that arrow. Mind games for sure, butbit works.

 

[Beendare]

Well its the whole "90% mental....." thing for sure.

I think what happens is a lot of guys- myself included- is they get into trad for the simple reason its fun to fling arrows with a stickbow. You just pull it back and let it fly.

When that flinging arrows for the sake of shooting wears off, as your accuracy and consistency makes it not as much fun [like me missing a layup shot on a 140" buck at 25 yds- ouch] you start to realize how much more difficult the stick is over a compound. All of the good shooters have a commonality; They have good form that they work on continuously.

When a guy like Jay Barrs practices at a BB before a big shoot....it pretty much tells you the importance. I shot the trad Natl's a couple years back with a group of the top shooters in Ca and to a man....they all spend a lot of time on the BB. Now of course there is more than one way to skin a cat........I bring up the topic as it has helped me a lot.

 

[marcb]

Do you do it? [ title was supposed to read, DO IT? ...with a question mark]

Very much so. When I competed Oly style it would do at least 50 arrows almost every evening except high arrow count days. Nothing improved and maintains form quite like it.

I'm not sure how shooting without worrying about accuracy "complicates" things. If anything it removes complications like targets, and scores. Boils shooting down to just the archer and his/her actions.

 

[Kevin Dill]

I met a guy many decades ago who thought he had his recurve all figured out. He advocated against repetitive form and the need for consistency. He talked about shooting his bow like he was some Zen master practicing a martial art. He shot in the crouch and with extreme bow cant. He said all that form practice stuff was for those compound guys...real stickbow hunters didn't need any of it. Just get out there and shoot like crazy...you'll be amazed how you can hit a pop cap at 20 yards while standing on one foot and using a reverse bow cant...it was all quite amazing. This guy was basically a Doctor Malarkey and he had a dozen disciples following everything he did. I've never seen so much terrible shooting, target panic, frustration and wounding. In any event...Dr M used his recurve for about 5 years and then reloaded to a fully-equipped compound which he's used ever since.

I often think of NFL quarterbacks. They work on every single fundamental of their task. Hand placement, ball handling, ball rotation, foot placement, body alignment, mechanics, follow-through...every last detail is worked on. Then they have to go out and do it all without thinking... while under pressure to do it right and avoid mistakes. The guys who don't do that tend to have short careers and lots of incomplete passes. The guys who do it very well are often lauded as natural talents and prodigies....when in reality they practice to the point they can make it look it easy.

 

[TurkeyBowMaster]

The fixes are harder with trad! You can dry fire a rifle, have someone load it, or not load it and not let you know, compound shooters have releases that go off at different tensions or not go off at all. You can't dry fire a bow, and if you finger shoot there is no way to trick that. At one time I did shoot black fletched arrows into a black target for some non results based shooting, but you still had to go down and pull them.

It's just easier to be bad at some things than others. Ask any golfer. You will seldom try to push a bullet. Pitcher having trouble finding the strike zone with push the baseball, and quarterbacks will guide instead of throw the football. Finger shooters will also push the arrow and try to shoot the arrow, rather than let the bow shoot it.

I find it hard to quit on a bad shot...more bad shots follow and bad habits are reinforced. When Tim Tebow was trying to get an NFL throwing motion down, some expert said it took over 6000 percent reps to erase a bad habit. It only took one bad rep to reset the count to zero. That is why Tim is not in the NFL.

 

[TurkeyBowMaster]

"My last ten big game kills have been one arrow affairs and I've watched every animal go down in sight. That actually amazes me and is the only reason I mention it. "

Amazes me too. I would love to get a summary of each kill...species, shot distance, etc and pics. Love it when works pays off and it would be inspiring motavation to implement the above advice.

 

[Kevin Dill]

"My last ten big game kills have been one arrow affairs and I've watched every animal go down in sight. That actually amazes me and is the only reason I mention it. "

Amazes me too. I would love to get a summary of each kill...species, shot distance, etc and pics. Love it when works pays off and it would be inspiring motavation to implement the above advice.

I'd rather see this thread remain about the advantages of BB shooting. I'm not the slightest bit interested in turning it into a documentary about my dead animals, thanks. Suffice to say that BB shooting is an integral part of my practice which helps me improve form and strength...which has led me to better and more consistent accuracy...which has been demonstrated to me by my results afield on animals. For the record those were 2 Alaskan bull moose, 7 Ohio whitetails, 1 Manitoba black bear...and along the way a coyote and a turkey here in Ohio. As Gump says..."That's all I have to say about that".

 

[justinspicher]

I found a range near the house with some bales large enough to do some BB. I'm gonna give it a shot this week after work.

 

[Superkodiak38]

The fixes are harder with trad! You can dry fire a rifle, have someone load it, or not load it and not let you know, compound shooters have releases that go off at different tensions or not go off at all. You can't dry fire a bow, and if you finger shoot there is no way to trick that..

TBM you are right about dry firing but there is a tool you can use that is a great teaching aid for developing back tension and testing yourself to see if you are developing it. Your Quote above made me think of it, I made one several years ago, it's a two piece strap one piece on either side of your elbow, it comes together and has a piece of cord attached to it that you can adjusts and wraps around your serving area / nocking point. You can use this training aid in two different ways the first way is to draw your bow using the strap, drawing with your elbow and back tension. If you have never felt proper back tension you will feel it now ! lol once you have developed the feel for this you can draw the bow and actually drop the string. If your elbow goes flying forward you are not using back tension. You should have enough back tension stored and be pulling and expanding through your shot enough at the release that your elbow should stay in place. Here is a video I made on my old youtube account the day my biddy Chris and I made one and started using it. This is also a tool I use in conjunction with BB Mon, 17 May #3 - YouTube

 

[PJG]

I would caution to add an when arrow when using a form master, almost every homemade one I've seen has failed resulting in a dry fire.

It's a great tool, try shooting a 3D or target round with one.

If you have to cash I'd personally recommend buying the Astra shot trainer rather than building one that eventually fails.

 

[Beendare]

I found a range near the house with some bales large enough to do some BB. I'm gonna give it a shot this week after work.

Oh wow Justin...we finally beat you down on the BB thing....grin
I think you will find it helps with a part of your shot. , The excellent Rod Jenkins recommends isolating the different parts of your shot like your release for example...and just feeling that. Personally, I have a problem with plucking and inconsistent release...the BB helps a lot. Finding your anchor consistently, follow through, bow arm position, etc are all things you can focus on. Hope it helps.

Hey, its all about getting good advice. As Kevin mentioned in his good example...there is a lot of bad advice around on stickbow shooting. You see a lot of these guys at the tournaments. I was lucky to get some great advice from some of the top shooters in the country....a couple pictured here pulling arrows [one is mine!] in "The Rat" at the Trad nationals 2013


I've seen Tom around for years and didn't know Allan at all...but both were very helpful taking time to set me straight on a few things- they didn't have to do that, thx guys! Then I have a friend that was one heck of a shot in his day mentor me. Point is, form is everything....and when there is so much going on with a stickbow shot...it helps to isolate the components and the BB does that..

 

[elkstabber]

Another fan of BB shooting. I've hunted exclusively with a recurve for about 15 years so I've had a lot of practice. Over that time I've ingrained good habits and developed some bad habits that I had to correct. During hunting season (Aug-Jan) I generally shoot about four days per week. Usually I shoot for about 10-20 minutes. This is easy to do because I live on a farm and depends more on the weather and if the kids need to be somewhere.

Even with all of that shooting practice I try to spend one day of each week just shooting BB. Usually it's just five minutes before dinner and can easily be done in the dark with a house light. BB shooting allows me to "lock in" my form. BB shooting is great for maintaining strength and muscle memory.