The problem that I have is that not a single person in SFW will fess up to the tag grab. Everyone just "says thats not us thats the AZSFW" But every one is will to take credit for the conservation work that has been done. It seems like every time that it is mentioned they just pass the buck onto someone else.
Big Game Forever & Sportsman For Wildlife
- Thread starter dotman
- Start date
- Status
TOPGUN:
Yep, you got it right. I was off doing stuff way more important than simply blogging and slogging in the mud. I guess not all of us have time to spew dis-information non-stop as we have things we actually need to accomplish.
I am not going to answer every single question that has been asked about SFW but I will do my best to inform people that sincerely want to know the truth about SFW/BGF. I am the Executive Director of WY SFW. No one asked earlier. I was actually asked to come on this site to answer some of the questions that were being asked by one of my Board Members. All I can say is that the majority of the anti-SFW/BGF stuff is coming from the same group of people, no matter where the sites are located. Most of the posts are hear say, where I am actually the individual in Wyoming that has been working for and in behalf of WY SFW. I also helped coordinate the BGF efforts in Wyoming as well. My posts are my own, as are my opinions. If any one knows anything about lobbying, they will know that the most important attributes you can have is your own honesty & integrity. I have not misrepresented anything WY SFW has done, nor anything that BGF has done under my direction. I will not waste any more of my time trying to educate those who have already concluded that they already know everything about SFW/BGF simply because they read it somewhere on another blog. I will reiterate that I believe running one group down to feel better about another group is not a very productive method. As we all know, a rising tide lifts all boats equally. Rather than divide sportsmen, I will continue to work with Wyoming's Sportsmen to achieve their goals & objectives. Furthermore; I have to wonder why TOPGUN continues to imply that he has any desire to join our ranks as a member of WY SFW when all he can do is speak against the group? Seems odd to me that he would want to join a group that he hates so much.
Big Sky:
If you would like, I would be willing to send you a copy of the Sportsmen's Voice. It is a quarterly publication of SFW and contains information about all of the SFW States. You would quickly realize that there is no AZ SFW section in that magazine. Furthermore, they have a similar but different name; Sportsmen For Wildlife as opposed to Sportsmen for Fish & Wildlife. Minor difference, but they are not associated with the SFW organizations. I believe AZ also has their own version of RMEF, MDF, etc. so I don't understand why it is so difficult for people to see that they can be similar but not the same.
Yep, you got it right. I was off doing stuff way more important than simply blogging and slogging in the mud. I guess not all of us have time to spew dis-information non-stop as we have things we actually need to accomplish.
I am not going to answer every single question that has been asked about SFW but I will do my best to inform people that sincerely want to know the truth about SFW/BGF. I am the Executive Director of WY SFW. No one asked earlier. I was actually asked to come on this site to answer some of the questions that were being asked by one of my Board Members. All I can say is that the majority of the anti-SFW/BGF stuff is coming from the same group of people, no matter where the sites are located. Most of the posts are hear say, where I am actually the individual in Wyoming that has been working for and in behalf of WY SFW. I also helped coordinate the BGF efforts in Wyoming as well. My posts are my own, as are my opinions. If any one knows anything about lobbying, they will know that the most important attributes you can have is your own honesty & integrity. I have not misrepresented anything WY SFW has done, nor anything that BGF has done under my direction. I will not waste any more of my time trying to educate those who have already concluded that they already know everything about SFW/BGF simply because they read it somewhere on another blog. I will reiterate that I believe running one group down to feel better about another group is not a very productive method. As we all know, a rising tide lifts all boats equally. Rather than divide sportsmen, I will continue to work with Wyoming's Sportsmen to achieve their goals & objectives. Furthermore; I have to wonder why TOPGUN continues to imply that he has any desire to join our ranks as a member of WY SFW when all he can do is speak against the group? Seems odd to me that he would want to join a group that he hates so much.
Big Sky:
If you would like, I would be willing to send you a copy of the Sportsmen's Voice. It is a quarterly publication of SFW and contains information about all of the SFW States. You would quickly realize that there is no AZ SFW section in that magazine. Furthermore, they have a similar but different name; Sportsmen For Wildlife as opposed to Sportsmen for Fish & Wildlife. Minor difference, but they are not associated with the SFW organizations. I believe AZ also has their own version of RMEF, MDF, etc. so I don't understand why it is so difficult for people to see that they can be similar but not the same.
Topgun 30-06
Banned
- Joined
- Feb 25, 2012
- Location
- Allegan, MI
There you go dotman and others! Another circle jerk of a post with no facts or answers to any of the questions being asked all over the country regarding SFW and their tag grab. It's very interesting that Bob came back on and did not contradict what I stated earlier about joining their organization if he'd make one statement that no further tag grabs would be attempted. It's also amazing that all of these groups are so separate like Bob and other SFW ground troops like to mention and yet they know every friggin thing going on in every state they're in! They may have set up different charters and organizations in each state, but as the old saying goes: "If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck..."
Great post WYOBOB, as it was just what I stated it would be if you returned. You forgot to ask me to tell everyone what bad stuff WYSFW has done. You're slipping old buddy, but maybe you figured I'd tell them about your great plan to help "stabilize" the outfitting industry, as you keep putting it, when in fact it was the first WYSFW backed attempt to get tags set aside for outfitters. That's not "stabilizing", but rather a failed attempt to steal tags away from the WY NR draw. Oops, I just spilled the beans anyway, LOL! If people haven't noticed, the usual MO of this group is to try and take away from the NR pool of tags in a state since the NRs have no voice in the matter. The latest attempt was a back door, silent as you go into the night attempt in AZ to steal 350 tags, but a groundswell of us DIY folks from all over the country found out about it and beat that "emergency" bill, LOL! Yep, it was a real emergency, as they wanted to get it done fast behind everyone's backs before it could be squashed. Then they sent Suzanne Gilstrap, the main SFW lobbyist who has made hundreds of thousands of dollars off the SFW schemes the last few years, including trying to get the wolf rider defeated that now the SFW claims was passed due to them, back to schmooze with the Governor behind closed doors a couple more times to get it back on track.
Look at what little you can obtain of their records on the net because they won't show anything when asked and it's probably lucky if 20% of what they take in every year goes back to habitat in looking at what little is available. The reason is because big chunks of money are going to Peay, Gilstrap, Benson, and other top people who are getting rich off these tags while the people in the field are trying to do good work with what they are being given. As I stated earlier, I have no bones to pick with anyone at the worker level in these groups as they are doing good work with what percentage of money that is taken in and given to them. That is basically what WYOBOB keeps preaching and I haven't disagreed with him on that!Cripes, Peay himself, has built a huge custom log home in the last several years alone and it sits right in the heart of some of the best winter range Utah has to offer. Yep, great conservation guy he is!!!
Also, please don't say anything more about AZSFW not being one of the Utah Chapters. It may not be the way it was set up on the books and it isn't on the main map, but Peay himself was instrumental in getting P. Cimerello (sp) and Ms. Gilstrap on board in that state to set it up and keep it rolling. She packed her bags and got out of the Capitol after a news expose went on TV showing what the SFW was trying to pull at the Governor's Office, even after that initial Bill was pulled by Rep. Weiers. They'll be back again and all of us folks will need to remain vigilant and squash this bug every time it emerges!
Hey Bob, if all this is coming from just a few folks on the net, how could just the few of us "mud slinger" as you call us, have defeated that major AZ tag grab? The answer is that there may be a few epople on the net that have the time like I do to get the word out, but I can guarantee that there are many thousands of sportspersons who have now figured out what the SFW really stands for and the higher ups will be putting out fires from here on out until the group goes away or changes for the good of all, rather than a few higher ups who are making a living off people that don't know any better or have the time to investigate the group.
The fact that these are nonprofit groups doen't mean squat if that is what they try to come up with because they can pay their executives big salaries, consultant fees, etc., as there is nothing on the books that requires them to be anything but non profit and the rules are pretty easy to see why they went that route. Therefore, I'm not saying they are doing anything illegal. That would be hard to prove when Mr. Peay even wants Randy Newberg to sign a nondisclosure statement before they allow him to look at any of their financial records as a part of the anticipated debate. WTF? If they are such a great group and not doing anything but great deeds, why ask for that? You all can come to your own conclusion on that, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that something is rotten in Denmark!
Great post WYOBOB, as it was just what I stated it would be if you returned. You forgot to ask me to tell everyone what bad stuff WYSFW has done. You're slipping old buddy, but maybe you figured I'd tell them about your great plan to help "stabilize" the outfitting industry, as you keep putting it, when in fact it was the first WYSFW backed attempt to get tags set aside for outfitters. That's not "stabilizing", but rather a failed attempt to steal tags away from the WY NR draw. Oops, I just spilled the beans anyway, LOL! If people haven't noticed, the usual MO of this group is to try and take away from the NR pool of tags in a state since the NRs have no voice in the matter. The latest attempt was a back door, silent as you go into the night attempt in AZ to steal 350 tags, but a groundswell of us DIY folks from all over the country found out about it and beat that "emergency" bill, LOL! Yep, it was a real emergency, as they wanted to get it done fast behind everyone's backs before it could be squashed. Then they sent Suzanne Gilstrap, the main SFW lobbyist who has made hundreds of thousands of dollars off the SFW schemes the last few years, including trying to get the wolf rider defeated that now the SFW claims was passed due to them, back to schmooze with the Governor behind closed doors a couple more times to get it back on track.
Look at what little you can obtain of their records on the net because they won't show anything when asked and it's probably lucky if 20% of what they take in every year goes back to habitat in looking at what little is available. The reason is because big chunks of money are going to Peay, Gilstrap, Benson, and other top people who are getting rich off these tags while the people in the field are trying to do good work with what they are being given. As I stated earlier, I have no bones to pick with anyone at the worker level in these groups as they are doing good work with what percentage of money that is taken in and given to them. That is basically what WYOBOB keeps preaching and I haven't disagreed with him on that!Cripes, Peay himself, has built a huge custom log home in the last several years alone and it sits right in the heart of some of the best winter range Utah has to offer. Yep, great conservation guy he is!!!
Also, please don't say anything more about AZSFW not being one of the Utah Chapters. It may not be the way it was set up on the books and it isn't on the main map, but Peay himself was instrumental in getting P. Cimerello (sp) and Ms. Gilstrap on board in that state to set it up and keep it rolling. She packed her bags and got out of the Capitol after a news expose went on TV showing what the SFW was trying to pull at the Governor's Office, even after that initial Bill was pulled by Rep. Weiers. They'll be back again and all of us folks will need to remain vigilant and squash this bug every time it emerges!
Hey Bob, if all this is coming from just a few folks on the net, how could just the few of us "mud slinger" as you call us, have defeated that major AZ tag grab? The answer is that there may be a few epople on the net that have the time like I do to get the word out, but I can guarantee that there are many thousands of sportspersons who have now figured out what the SFW really stands for and the higher ups will be putting out fires from here on out until the group goes away or changes for the good of all, rather than a few higher ups who are making a living off people that don't know any better or have the time to investigate the group.
The fact that these are nonprofit groups doen't mean squat if that is what they try to come up with because they can pay their executives big salaries, consultant fees, etc., as there is nothing on the books that requires them to be anything but non profit and the rules are pretty easy to see why they went that route. Therefore, I'm not saying they are doing anything illegal. That would be hard to prove when Mr. Peay even wants Randy Newberg to sign a nondisclosure statement before they allow him to look at any of their financial records as a part of the anticipated debate. WTF? If they are such a great group and not doing anything but great deeds, why ask for that? You all can come to your own conclusion on that, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that something is rotten in Denmark!
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TOPGUN:
I was shocked to see that it took you so long to respond to my post. And you said I was slipping! For a retired law enforcement guy, you sure have me scared. Your use of "facts" are pretty loose, to say the least. Your opinion does not make it factual. As I stated before, what I have posted is not hearsay, it is what happened from my perspective. WY SFW supported "stabilizing" the Outfitting Industry because an expanding Outfitting Industry is not something we would like to see in Wyoming. The fact remains that had something been done to stop outfitters from taking more hunters than they had historically, we would not be in the situation we now find ourselves in the Cody Region. I am tired of correcting your falsehoods and lies. You were not at our Board meeting with this topic was discussed, you were not there when WY SFW formulated our strategy; yet, you continue to come on blog sites and act as an expert witness because you read it somewhere. I might also point out that you have yet been able to demonstrate where WY SFW has done anything which was harmful or detrimental to Wyoming's Sportsmen or our hunting, fishing and trapping heritage.
I know everything WY SFW that is doing inside Wyoming because that is my job; 24/7. I work hard to ensure that sportsmen have a voice in Wyoming. WY SFW has fought to ensure that OUR Wolf Management Plan was accepted. At one point, even Don Peay advised me to "take a bullet for the team" and accept trophy status statewide. My response was that it would be the end of WY SFW if we walked away from what Wyoming's sportsmen desired. WY SFW has been fighting to protect our ability to maintain elk feed grounds. The only other group which has stood side by side with WY SFW has been the Outfitters. WY SFW lead the charge to get the Wyoming Wildlife & Natural Resource Trust established. It had been tried twice before, only to be defeated by the AG lobby and Oil & Gas Industry lobby. WY SFW identified & isolated the concerns from both of these very strong lobby groups. Both said they would not push the legislation that they would remain neutral. Any attempts to attach fee title acquisition to the bill would result in their group killing the bill as they had done in the past. Every time an amendment was placed on the bill, it was left to WY SFW to defeat the amendment or face losing the bill. If WY SFW accomplishes nothing else in Wyoming, every dime our members have invested in their organization will have been well spent. WY SFW has also played a major role in securing the initial 6.2 million dollars that has been put into our local county predator management boards. We also supported changing the Board from just being one which was fully funded and represented only by ranchers to a Board which now includes sportsmen. This has enabled sportsmen to have a seat at the table when predator management decisions are being developed and then implemented. WY SFW has played a major role in seeing that this program continues to receive necessary funding and support on all levels. WY SFW helped the WY G&F Department secure several millions of dollars for funding from Wyoming's general fund. Past Director Terry Cleveland had one heck of a time convincing the other wildlife group to allow us a seat at the table because he knew that it would not happen without the support of WY SFW. WY SFW has made sure that our Aquatic Invasive Species (AIS) program has been supported and funded (from general funds) at a level which has allowed Wyoming to keep a vigilant surveillance program in place to prevent our head waters from being infected by zebra/quagga mussels as well as other non-native species. WY SFW & Wyoming Wool Growers are the reason that the WY G&F Department must declare every time a nuisance grizzly bear is trapped and relocated.
WY SFW does not pay one nickle to Don Peay, Ryan Benson, or Suzzanne Gilstrap. Where is your "factual" data to support that "big chuncks of money" are going to any of these people, let alone that any of that money is coming from "tags"? You must continue to choose to remain ignorant of the facts as the mission of SFW is much great than just "habitat", so it would not surprise me to see that 20% is being allocated towards "habitat". You talk about the "executives big salaries, consultant fees, etc."; yet, by you own admission, you don't have a clue as to what kind of salaries, consulting fees, etc. is being paid. You have said nothing about the fact that National Organizations in Wyoming are mining our natural resources and giving hardly anything back in return. As I said earlier, the RMEF admitted that they generate over $1 million annually; yet, they only leave $200-300,000. Their one man stated that the 70% was used to cover overhead costs of maintaining their HQ's. The MDF has had similar problems in Wyoming. The Rock Springs chapter has raised approximately $500,000 over a three year period and received back around $100,000. Both RMEF & MDF are great organizations; however, each state is a smaller part of a greater whole. Money raised in every state is held in a central location, with the National entity deciding where the priorities should be. Their priorities are not always going to match that of each respective state which raised the money for their specific purpose or mission. Wyoming now has Muley Fanatics, a non-profit organization, in the place of MDF. Why? For the reason I just stated. I also noticed that Idaho has a new group forming from an old, local organization Deer Hunters of Idaho (DHI). The new group is Idaho Deer Alliance (IDA). From what I have learned, they are taking this action because they noticed the same trend in their state; too much money was being sent to priorities outside of Idaho. This is not a criticism of either of these groups, it is only to make a point that every group has their way of running their business. Each of these groups have their own model that has strengths and weaknesses. I am smart enough to know that destroying either of these groups is stupid even though I see them taking money from these respective states.
I use to argue a lot with Don Peay about the biology behind wildlife management and he would argue about everything being political. I now know that everything is political. Sportsmen have been taught for far too long that we must only focus on our species of concern or interest and their required habitat needs; furthermore, we have been told to stay out of the politics, as it can get nasty. I have also learned that by sportsmen vacating the political arena it set the stage for other groups to masquerade as sportsmen. WY SFW has stopped this from happening in our state. Our State Legislators, as well as our Congressional delegation know who we are and that we represent the "hook & bullet" crowd.
Shoot away TOPGUN.
I was shocked to see that it took you so long to respond to my post. And you said I was slipping! For a retired law enforcement guy, you sure have me scared. Your use of "facts" are pretty loose, to say the least. Your opinion does not make it factual. As I stated before, what I have posted is not hearsay, it is what happened from my perspective. WY SFW supported "stabilizing" the Outfitting Industry because an expanding Outfitting Industry is not something we would like to see in Wyoming. The fact remains that had something been done to stop outfitters from taking more hunters than they had historically, we would not be in the situation we now find ourselves in the Cody Region. I am tired of correcting your falsehoods and lies. You were not at our Board meeting with this topic was discussed, you were not there when WY SFW formulated our strategy; yet, you continue to come on blog sites and act as an expert witness because you read it somewhere. I might also point out that you have yet been able to demonstrate where WY SFW has done anything which was harmful or detrimental to Wyoming's Sportsmen or our hunting, fishing and trapping heritage.
I know everything WY SFW that is doing inside Wyoming because that is my job; 24/7. I work hard to ensure that sportsmen have a voice in Wyoming. WY SFW has fought to ensure that OUR Wolf Management Plan was accepted. At one point, even Don Peay advised me to "take a bullet for the team" and accept trophy status statewide. My response was that it would be the end of WY SFW if we walked away from what Wyoming's sportsmen desired. WY SFW has been fighting to protect our ability to maintain elk feed grounds. The only other group which has stood side by side with WY SFW has been the Outfitters. WY SFW lead the charge to get the Wyoming Wildlife & Natural Resource Trust established. It had been tried twice before, only to be defeated by the AG lobby and Oil & Gas Industry lobby. WY SFW identified & isolated the concerns from both of these very strong lobby groups. Both said they would not push the legislation that they would remain neutral. Any attempts to attach fee title acquisition to the bill would result in their group killing the bill as they had done in the past. Every time an amendment was placed on the bill, it was left to WY SFW to defeat the amendment or face losing the bill. If WY SFW accomplishes nothing else in Wyoming, every dime our members have invested in their organization will have been well spent. WY SFW has also played a major role in securing the initial 6.2 million dollars that has been put into our local county predator management boards. We also supported changing the Board from just being one which was fully funded and represented only by ranchers to a Board which now includes sportsmen. This has enabled sportsmen to have a seat at the table when predator management decisions are being developed and then implemented. WY SFW has played a major role in seeing that this program continues to receive necessary funding and support on all levels. WY SFW helped the WY G&F Department secure several millions of dollars for funding from Wyoming's general fund. Past Director Terry Cleveland had one heck of a time convincing the other wildlife group to allow us a seat at the table because he knew that it would not happen without the support of WY SFW. WY SFW has made sure that our Aquatic Invasive Species (AIS) program has been supported and funded (from general funds) at a level which has allowed Wyoming to keep a vigilant surveillance program in place to prevent our head waters from being infected by zebra/quagga mussels as well as other non-native species. WY SFW & Wyoming Wool Growers are the reason that the WY G&F Department must declare every time a nuisance grizzly bear is trapped and relocated.
WY SFW does not pay one nickle to Don Peay, Ryan Benson, or Suzzanne Gilstrap. Where is your "factual" data to support that "big chuncks of money" are going to any of these people, let alone that any of that money is coming from "tags"? You must continue to choose to remain ignorant of the facts as the mission of SFW is much great than just "habitat", so it would not surprise me to see that 20% is being allocated towards "habitat". You talk about the "executives big salaries, consultant fees, etc."; yet, by you own admission, you don't have a clue as to what kind of salaries, consulting fees, etc. is being paid. You have said nothing about the fact that National Organizations in Wyoming are mining our natural resources and giving hardly anything back in return. As I said earlier, the RMEF admitted that they generate over $1 million annually; yet, they only leave $200-300,000. Their one man stated that the 70% was used to cover overhead costs of maintaining their HQ's. The MDF has had similar problems in Wyoming. The Rock Springs chapter has raised approximately $500,000 over a three year period and received back around $100,000. Both RMEF & MDF are great organizations; however, each state is a smaller part of a greater whole. Money raised in every state is held in a central location, with the National entity deciding where the priorities should be. Their priorities are not always going to match that of each respective state which raised the money for their specific purpose or mission. Wyoming now has Muley Fanatics, a non-profit organization, in the place of MDF. Why? For the reason I just stated. I also noticed that Idaho has a new group forming from an old, local organization Deer Hunters of Idaho (DHI). The new group is Idaho Deer Alliance (IDA). From what I have learned, they are taking this action because they noticed the same trend in their state; too much money was being sent to priorities outside of Idaho. This is not a criticism of either of these groups, it is only to make a point that every group has their way of running their business. Each of these groups have their own model that has strengths and weaknesses. I am smart enough to know that destroying either of these groups is stupid even though I see them taking money from these respective states.
I use to argue a lot with Don Peay about the biology behind wildlife management and he would argue about everything being political. I now know that everything is political. Sportsmen have been taught for far too long that we must only focus on our species of concern or interest and their required habitat needs; furthermore, we have been told to stay out of the politics, as it can get nasty. I have also learned that by sportsmen vacating the political arena it set the stage for other groups to masquerade as sportsmen. WY SFW has stopped this from happening in our state. Our State Legislators, as well as our Congressional delegation know who we are and that we represent the "hook & bullet" crowd.
Shoot away TOPGUN.
- Joined
- Jan 23, 2012
- Location
- The Wilderness
Hey WyoBob,
It would be great if you could contribute more to Rokslide other than in this thread....not a requirement by any means, but it would be nice to see that you actually joined Rokslide.com to help others in getting into the outdoors and helping them become better hunters.
Thanks
It would be great if you could contribute more to Rokslide other than in this thread....not a requirement by any means, but it would be nice to see that you actually joined Rokslide.com to help others in getting into the outdoors and helping them become better hunters.
Thanks
aron snyder:
I was asked to come on here specific to this thread but I am happy to look at other topics, etc. I eat, sleep and drink hunting, 24/7. Nothing more satisfying than taking someone out for their first hunting experience. I am more than happy to help anyone that I can to learn more about hunting and equally important, I am willing to learn from others as well. Let me know how I can send you my personal contact information without the whole world seeing it. I would love to talk more with you about rokslide. It is an awesome sight!
I was asked to come on here specific to this thread but I am happy to look at other topics, etc. I eat, sleep and drink hunting, 24/7. Nothing more satisfying than taking someone out for their first hunting experience. I am more than happy to help anyone that I can to learn more about hunting and equally important, I am willing to learn from others as well. Let me know how I can send you my personal contact information without the whole world seeing it. I would love to talk more with you about rokslide. It is an awesome sight!
Topgun 30-06
Banned
- Joined
- Feb 25, 2012
- Location
- Allegan, MI
WYOBOB---That was sure a long rant, and again, there was very little of substance regarding my comments, but I will say a couple things and let everyone figure things out for themselves. You stated: "I might also point out that you have yet been able to demonstrate where WY SFW has done anything which was harmful or detrimental to Wyoming's Sportsmen or our hunting, fishing and trapping heritage." That is the same lame thing you post every time you come on a thread responding to one of my posts. Please read this slowly and make it the last time you do that. I have "never" said that the Wyoming Chapter, or even those in other states hasn't done a lot of good. In fact, in my last post I stated that the members (average Joes, if you will) are doing lots of good work with what they are being given! Therefore, I'll continue to not say anything negative against your WY group, other than what I stated regarding the tags the group wanted to take out of the NR pool to give to the outfitters so they had guaranteed tags to help them stay in business. You keep using the words "stabilize the industry" and yet every time I, or others, have asked the particulars of your plan you will not tell us! It's always the same spiel that you just posted again regarding this "strategy" of yours and your Board of Directors. It gets old when a person in the know like you maintain you are is asked questions over and over with no answers being given and then reading your BS that I, or others, are lying or not making factual statements. Bob, the road goes both ways because you are also stating your opinions and when people ask you to back them up with facts we get nothing but a few days with you away from the thread and then coming back on just like you did above! We have been speaking about the AZSFW and UTSFW in regards to the tags, salaries and consultant fees, etc., not the WYSFW! You either know or don't know the facts regarding what we are talking about. If you know them, then post them and refute what you are calling lies! If you don't, then you shouldn't be making the statements that people are lying. The monies we are discussing is huge when you look at the few pieces of paperwork that anyone can come up with on the past few years tax returns. Come back and tell us that what I stated about Ms. Gilstrap was incorrect. Come back on here and tell me that Don doesn't have a custom log home in what is/was considered prime mule deer winter range near Bountiful. Tell me Don doesn't make hundreds of thousands of dollars in "consultant fees" from the SFW. Tell me Don wasn't the instrumental person in establishing BGF with Ryan Benson and the WYSFW with you in Wyoming. Tell me Don wasn't instrumental in getting the AZ SFW set up when there are people out there that were in on it and no longer belong, but know that he got together with Pete to set it up as a separate entity with a slightly different name. One thing I will agree with you is that it's hard to come up with financial facts, other than what I just stated, and that's because the organization appears to hide as much as possible from everyone. It is fact that Suzanne and Don have made hundreds of thousands of dollars in "consultant fees" from the SFW organizations, regardless of whether they have been set up as independent units or not. How about telling me what your theory is for Don asking Randy to sign a nondisclosure statement before any financial paperwork is shown to him as the debate date nears. If that alone doesn't smell like rotten fish, I don't know what does! I will close with one last thought and it's this. With all the thousands of people that are now in an uproar across the country and that have so far been successful in defeating the AZSFW attempt to take 350 tags in an "emergency" bill, and the fact that those thousands of people only see "SFW" as one big, joint boondoggle, why doesn't the WYSFW and maybe even the NMSFW Chapter, disenfranchise itself from the UTSFW main unit? Is it because of the way they were set up by Don and that's impossible at least for a certain amount of time? It would seem like you would want to change names and get as far away from Don and his cronies as you can in order to maintain all the good work being done in Wyoming and not be associated with someone or some group that is pulling all of us DIY average Joe sportspersons apart at the seams! Oh yea, in regards to this deal where you say you are all separate and have nothing to do with how each is run, I will quote you from your last post: "At one point, even Don Peay advised me to "take a bullet for the team" and accept trophy status statewide." Which is it Bob? Are you all independent or a "team" of independents, LOL?
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TOPGUN:
It still appears to me that you continue to vilify all SFW state organizations when you are mad at Ut & Az specifically. Several people have told you that Az is not associated with the rest of the SFW states, just as the AZ Mule Deer Association and AZ Elk Foundation are not affiliated with MDF or RMEF. They still function (from what I understand) very similar to these two National groups but their focus remains solely on Arizona. You continue to insist that you are correct about the intent of an action taken by the WY SFW Board of Directors. You were not there. You did not benefit from the discussions which took place nor the direction we intended to go; yet, you continue to insist that you know our intent. You state that "it is hard to come up with financial facts" and the very next sentence you state as a matter of "fact" that Don & Suzanne "made hundreds of thousands of dollars in "consultatnt fees" from the SFW organizations. regardless of whether they have been set up as independent units or not". Which is it, fact or supposition? I really want to know how you can state that when you have nothing to support it? Have you every thought that Ut SFW might have more than one "consultant" working for their causes? Where is your proof that any other SFW organization has contributed to UT SFW's "consultant fees" for Don &/or Suzanne?
You choose a quote from me to prove that we are tied together. All I can say is the obvious fact remains that WY SFW did not abandon our dual status wolf management plan. I see the SFW states as an association rather than one entity and have been trying to get somethings done to clarify that we are not one entity. We do discuss certain issues that we have either faced or wrestled with; however, the decision making remains with each individual state. A simple example is Wyoming's elk feeding program. Other state agencies (Idaho & Montana) have openly criticized Wyoming for operating our feed grounds. Since it was one of our primary issues when we formed WY SFW, I attempted to work with other SFW states to educate them on the why's and how's behind our feeding program. It has been a national effort to close elk feed grounds so it is important for sportsmen to understand why Wyoming operates its elk feed grounds. As a single state you can see how it could be difficult for one state to fight it alone. WY SFW has not advocated that other states create elk feed grounds, we have just explained why we do it and what the impacts would be if Wyoming lost its ability to operate them. Since AZ SFW is not affiliated with us I have not had any interaction with them. I did meet Suzanne while I was in Washington, D.C. attending a rally for BGF's efforts to remove all wolves from protection under the ESA. I have spoken with just about every other SFW State about various issues; ID & NM more than just about any others. Hopefully, this helps you understand a little bit better how we are different; yet, attempt to work together on common goals that are beyond one specific state boundaries. If nothing else, I hope all of these discussions help make SFW a better and more effective organization. We have no one else to blame but ourselves for not clearly articulating that we are an association of Western States with a common foundation and mission.
I am done posting on this topic as I would rather move on to more constructive actions. I will not pretend to understand why Randy would need to sign any kind of confidential agreement; however, I do look forward to the debate between the two. Maybe after Randy has a chance to look at things he can at least acknowledge that the books are on the up & up and that whatever was contained therein warranted the confidentiality agreement.
It still appears to me that you continue to vilify all SFW state organizations when you are mad at Ut & Az specifically. Several people have told you that Az is not associated with the rest of the SFW states, just as the AZ Mule Deer Association and AZ Elk Foundation are not affiliated with MDF or RMEF. They still function (from what I understand) very similar to these two National groups but their focus remains solely on Arizona. You continue to insist that you are correct about the intent of an action taken by the WY SFW Board of Directors. You were not there. You did not benefit from the discussions which took place nor the direction we intended to go; yet, you continue to insist that you know our intent. You state that "it is hard to come up with financial facts" and the very next sentence you state as a matter of "fact" that Don & Suzanne "made hundreds of thousands of dollars in "consultatnt fees" from the SFW organizations. regardless of whether they have been set up as independent units or not". Which is it, fact or supposition? I really want to know how you can state that when you have nothing to support it? Have you every thought that Ut SFW might have more than one "consultant" working for their causes? Where is your proof that any other SFW organization has contributed to UT SFW's "consultant fees" for Don &/or Suzanne?
You choose a quote from me to prove that we are tied together. All I can say is the obvious fact remains that WY SFW did not abandon our dual status wolf management plan. I see the SFW states as an association rather than one entity and have been trying to get somethings done to clarify that we are not one entity. We do discuss certain issues that we have either faced or wrestled with; however, the decision making remains with each individual state. A simple example is Wyoming's elk feeding program. Other state agencies (Idaho & Montana) have openly criticized Wyoming for operating our feed grounds. Since it was one of our primary issues when we formed WY SFW, I attempted to work with other SFW states to educate them on the why's and how's behind our feeding program. It has been a national effort to close elk feed grounds so it is important for sportsmen to understand why Wyoming operates its elk feed grounds. As a single state you can see how it could be difficult for one state to fight it alone. WY SFW has not advocated that other states create elk feed grounds, we have just explained why we do it and what the impacts would be if Wyoming lost its ability to operate them. Since AZ SFW is not affiliated with us I have not had any interaction with them. I did meet Suzanne while I was in Washington, D.C. attending a rally for BGF's efforts to remove all wolves from protection under the ESA. I have spoken with just about every other SFW State about various issues; ID & NM more than just about any others. Hopefully, this helps you understand a little bit better how we are different; yet, attempt to work together on common goals that are beyond one specific state boundaries. If nothing else, I hope all of these discussions help make SFW a better and more effective organization. We have no one else to blame but ourselves for not clearly articulating that we are an association of Western States with a common foundation and mission.
I am done posting on this topic as I would rather move on to more constructive actions. I will not pretend to understand why Randy would need to sign any kind of confidential agreement; however, I do look forward to the debate between the two. Maybe after Randy has a chance to look at things he can at least acknowledge that the books are on the up & up and that whatever was contained therein warranted the confidentiality agreement.
Topgun 30-06
Banned
- Joined
- Feb 25, 2012
- Location
- Allegan, MI
Quack, quack, quack!!!
B
bearguide
Guest
can't you guys find anti hunting groups to fright about. hunters should stick together to benefit wildlife. find a group you can support, and support it. fighting with each other is divisive, and only helps out anti hunting. lets be positive.
B
bearguide
Guest
see post 45
- Joined
- Feb 25, 2012
- Location
- SE Idaho
bearguide keeps reminding us of this and he's got a good point...
Topgun 30-06
Banned
- Joined
- Feb 25, 2012
- Location
- Allegan, MI
bearguide---The fact is that we know who the antis are and nothing will change them. The other fact is that the main group we're talking about here is supposed to be set up to benefit the environment, hunters, etc., and yet the main way they started out and are continuing to do for their funding is completely against the NAM and average guy who can't afford those high auction tags. The other fact is that all the monies (nearly 1 million bucks a year) generated by the hundreds of raffle tags in Utah don't have any accountability and no requirement to return even 1% back. Now another under the table grab was attempted at hundreds of tags in AZ with the same ground rules! Then when it was shot down the group had the audacity to say they would compromise and give back a small percentage of the money to the G&F! Isn't that nice of them to want all those tags that belong to the people of the state and then say they will compromise and give some back, LOL! They are a sick joke and right now are doing more to be divisive than any group like PETA and they need to be stopped before they move to more states and rape them like they have in Utah!
B
bearguide
Guest
did't your mommy tell you if you don't have something good to say ... don't say nothing at all
I have a hard time ignoring what is going on, maybe SFW members need to reinvent who they use as consultants or are associated with. You may only see a few speakout here but more and more sportsman are seeing how Peay is an infection to our mission which is why many are speaking up and in more places then web forums.
We have to protect are rights just never thought we would have to do it against our own.
We have to protect are rights just never thought we would have to do it against our own.
B
bearguide
Guest
i do not argue about opinions on how different groups work to help wild life. if you want to help direct how a group is doing things, then all you have to do is join the group, get involved and contribute. i am in rmef, mdf, tu, sfw , bgf, mf, du, bsa, nsf,sfh. what are you guys doing to help? lets turn this in to a positive line on doing good.
Haha, with that ideal the antis would have had our hunting rights taken away years ago. Sometimes the truth hurts and can be seen as negative.
Topgun 30-06
Banned
- Joined
- Feb 25, 2012
- Location
- Allegan, MI
My Mommy told me to always fight for what's right and what I just posted regarding this group and that you appear to be mocking isn't right! I read your posts, including #45, and that would be great if everyone lived in a perfect world. However, we don't, as evidenced by what this thread is about. I have for many years done what you have suggested and belong to a number of groups doing great work and none of them get their money like the group we are discussing. If all the other good groups can do it without screwing the little guy, there is no reason this group should exist and gain their monies, a lot of it which goes to salaries, "consultant fees" to a couple of bigshots, etc., the way they do! If you believe in the NAM, then there is no way you can honestly say that you support a group that is completely contrary to the NAM! Sorry, but on this issue it appears that we will have to agree to disagree. While posting this I see you made another post with all the groups you belong to and I see the two that we are discussing here, so you continue on with them and live happily ever after knowing that you're supporting part of the problem by being a member!
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