Best breed for big game hunting companion.

[The Ri Guy]

Nothing wrong with Cur's for mountain dogs.

Our Blackmouth's are about the most savage dogs I've encountered in the woods to date. It's like they flip a switch from pampered couch princesses at home to ruthless killer hounds in the woods, and they're dead silent on the hunt, always within 30 yards running perimeter.

Our younger blackmouth is only 5, weighs maybe 40# wet, and squares up with anything that moves in the woods whether it be deer, a coyote pack, a bobcat, etc. Our older blackmouth is 13 now, and 1v3'd Pit Bull's a few years back that got through the in-laws fence one day. No exaggeration he went full terminator mode and killed one outright via the throat, fatally injured the second which had to be put down, and ran off the third, after they attacked and killed one of the in-laws dogs.

I like to call them our lightning noodles, those dogs are absurdly fast and agile in a fight and they shoot to kill in a scrap.

 

[KurtR]

Here's a list of dogs I'd consider. Blue heeler. They are bad azzes in a small package. Might be my first choice. Don't get one form town hippie. Get on from rancher that works. Train it etc. Anatolian Shepherd. Friend has one. Most beautiful dog ive seen. HUGE! Scares hell out of me. Very gentle but huge and huge bark when unsure. Looks just like a wolf with ears down. They are guard/herd dogs. Great Pyrenese. Great dogs. Quietly I'd throw a chesapeake bay retriever in there. They are much like a lab. Easy to train what you want it to do. A little more stoic than a lab. Less needy. Tougher than a lab. Great outdoor dog with think curly coat. Can be bad azzes if need to. Hunting dog with good prey drive.

Every pro trainer i have ran with say chesapeake are the hardest most stubborn not very smart but softest grudge holding dogs they have to deal with. Got to witness it first hand pre training for the grand last week. Most if they have been bitten by a dog it has been a chessy and usually for no apparent reason.

 

[johnnycake]

That's really good food for thought, and makes a lot of sense.

A question that comes to mind though, is how much of the responses you're describing are conditioning?

How much of a good response from a non-conditioned dog simply be that it doesn't know any better, having never encountered grizzly before?

That's a great question, with what from me is probably a terrible answer. No idea how I could quantify that, as I have not kept detailed notes on my grizzly exposure training efforts or "accidents" with other people's dogs.

I do know that I have not yet seen a dog that shut down on their first exposure to strong, fresh scent (not even a negative encounter) manage to overcome that reaction. At least not to the point that I felt I could rely on them to be any help if I ran into a grizzly with them, let alone be willing to use them to track a wounded one.

The dogs that are curious but nervous--darting in and back out but still coming back and want to explore that scent--have been a bit of a toss up on whether they held their own with a close face to face encounter from what their owners have told me or that I've been a witness to. Some did great, some did not. My younger dog fits in this category, and she's generally bold as brass (tried to take on a cow moose a few days after arriving in AK as a 7 week old pup--and the shit did it again the other night when we didn't check the yard carefully before letting them out). Karma has not handled herself well enough for me to bring her on a grizzly hunt let alone put her on a grizzly blood trail. Too much uncertainty still, even though she's been within 20 yards of tons of live grizzlies. She tends to be vocal and wants to break heel backing away and circling about unless I'm very hot and quick on the collar. Not desirable for me at all as I want my focus to be free to be 100% on the bear and hands on a weapon not having to hold and run the collar in my left while also steadying the gun. Lineage is pretty similar to my Ava, same kennel, well bred, with about 25% overlap in the dogs on their 4 generation pedigrees.

My recollection is that the dogs that are curious and confident when they are first exposed to fresh scent do great. I can't recall one of those dogs that ended up shutting down when encountering a bear. Ava was like this from the first night she arrived in Alaska and we took a hike and put her on steaming brown bear crap several times that night. She probably had ~30 separate encounters with live grizzlies/brownies under 50 yards in the first 4 months I owned her, and hundreds more with fresh tracks and scat. It was great.

And by strong/fresh scent I mean a fresh green hide if possible, or the clothes you wore while skinning a grizzly in the week or so before they get thrown away (as that stank just never fully goes away, especially salmon eating brownies), or poop that you are pretty confident is less than an hour old. Steaming is best. The older the scent, the less reliable it will be at identifying which dog is going to get nervous/shut down in front of the real thing. At least that's my thinking on it as I've puzzled through these issues the last ~9 years.

 

[dreamingWest]

I have a strong bias for well behaved Labradors, they are just so damn handsome. But there are some great looking dogs in this thread.

 

[RockAndSage]

That's a great question, with what from me is probably a terrible answer. No idea how I could quantify that, as I have not kept detailed notes on my grizzly exposure training efforts or "accidents" with other people's dogs.

I do know that I have not yet seen a dog that shut down on their first exposure to strong, fresh scent (not even a negative encounter) manage to overcome that reaction. At least not to the point that I felt I could rely on them to be any help if I ran into a grizzly with them, let alone be willing to use them to track a wounded one.

The dogs that are curious but nervous--darting in and back out but still coming back and want to explore that scent--have been a bit of a toss up on whether they held their own with a close face to face encounter from what their owners have told me or that I've been a witness to. Some did great, some did not. My younger dog fits in this category, and she's generally bold as brass (tried to take on a cow moose a few days after arriving in AK as a 7 week old pup--and the shit did it again the other night when we didn't check the yard carefully before letting them out). Karma has not handled herself well enough for me to bring her on a grizzly hunt let alone put her on a grizzly blood trail. Too much uncertainty still, even though she's been within 20 yards of tons of live grizzlies. She tends to be vocal and wants to break heel backing away and circling about unless I'm very hot and quick on the collar. Not desirable for me at all as I want my focus to be free to be 100% on the bear and hands on a weapon not having to hold and run the collar in my left while also steadying the gun. Lineage is pretty similar to my Ava, same kennel, well bred, with about 25% overlap in the dogs on their 4 generation pedigrees.

My recollection is that the dogs that are curious and confident when they are first exposed to fresh scent do great. I can't recall one of those dogs that ended up shutting down when encountering a bear. Ava was like this from the first night she arrived in Alaska and we took a hike and put her on steaming brown bear crap several times that night. She probably had ~30 separate encounters with live grizzlies/brownies under 50 yards in the first 4 months I owned her, and hundreds more with fresh tracks and scat. It was great.

And by strong/fresh scent I mean a fresh green hide if possible, or the clothes you wore while skinning a grizzly in the week or so before they get thrown away (as that stank just never fully goes away, especially salmon eating brownies), or poop that you are pretty confident is less than an hour old. Steaming is best. The older the scent, the less reliable it will be at identifying which dog is going to get nervous/shut down in front of the real thing. At least that's my thinking on it as I've puzzled through these issues the last ~9 years.

Man, that was super interesting, and very much appreciated. Thanks for sharing the details at this level.

 

[ohlongarm]

I agree that lineage and breeding can help, insofar as that will predisposition the dog to certain personality and temperament traits that are favorable. For example, being bold and assertive are good things to have in a bear dog, and breeding will definitely help with that. Couple that with early exposure and training and you're doing the best you can to have the dog do what you are hoping for (which is also true for whatever skill you have in mind for the dog). But it's not a guarantee. Case in point, dogs fail out of law enforcement and military K9 training all the time for a variety of reasons, despite excellent breeding and solid handling. Anybody who thinks they can guarantee a result when it comes to dogs, is full of it.

My next door neighbor is a state trooper and has a retired K9 Czech import GSD and an active K9 Malinois. She regularly holds K9 trainings in her yard and up and down our culdesac. She came up to chat with me a few years ago to ask what I had been killing recently. Apparently her GSD would growl and back away whenever the wind was blowing from the south, and other officers' dogs had very interesting and unexpected results during some training sessions when my bear waders were airing out! I now know to give her a heads up when I've got serious brown bear stink going on in my driveway.

There's just something about grizzlies/brown bears that registers in dogs differently than any other N.A. animal I've dealt with (no experience with polar bears--yet). And until you put a dog in close contact with a grizzly, you just do not know what they are going to do or how they will act.

I'll take my dogs to Montana whenever I go. I know they won't fail if push comes to shove, a courageous dog only buys a few moments for you should an attack occur; that's all I need to end it for him. Early on in training, it's apparent which dogs may fail under stress and duress; those are moved on in a different direction. Been doing this some time, not my first rodeo.

 

[Elkhuntinfool78]

Some great looking dogs in this thread. While some breeds might take to it easier than others I believe many breeds can make good hunting companions, just requires time on your part.

My best hunting companion was a Saint Bernard. Lost him 5 years ago and still miss him everyday.

 

[johnnycake]

Depends on the dogs lineage and breeding ,

I agree that lineage and breeding can help, insofar as that will predisposition the dog to certain personality and temperament traits that are favorable. For example, being bold and assertive are good things to have in a bear dog, and breeding will definitely help with that. Couple that with early exposure and training and you're doing the best you can to have the dog do what you are hoping for (which is also true for whatever skill you have in mind for the dog). But it's not a guarantee. Case in point, dogs fail out of law enforcement and military K9 training all the time for a variety of reasons, despite excellent breeding and solid handling.

Early on in training, it's apparent which dogs may fail under stress and duress; those are moved on in a different direction.

Sounds like we're now saying mostly the same thing. Some dogs have what it takes, some don't, even with good breeding and lineage.

 

[HighUintas]

Sounds like we're now saying mostly the same thing. Some dogs have what it takes, some don't, even with good breeding and lineage.

You didn't ever mention what breed your Ava is, I don't think. Just curious.

Do baby browns taste as good as elk calves?

 

[johnnycake]

You didn't ever mention what breed your Ava is, I don't think. Just curious.

Do baby browns taste as good as elk calves?

Ava's a pudelpointer from Cedarwood's Gun Dogs in Boise, ID

Even that little 7½' smelled bad enough for me to know it was not food! I've had mountain grizzly before that was ok. Not great, but edible enough. I've yet to smell any coastal brownie that really made me think it was worth giving a go in the skillet

 

[HighUintas]

Ava's a pudelpointer from Cedarwood's Gun Dogs in Boise, ID

Even that little 7½' smelled bad enough for me to know it was not food! I've had mountain grizzly before that was ok. Not great, but edible enough. I've yet to smell any coastal brownie that really made me think it was worth giving a go in the skillet
View attachment 957737

Interesting. Seemingly far from all the other recs here. Does she point on alerting for bears? I know zilch about pointers.... So that maybe a stupid question. Google's summary of that dog breed's traits are appealing to me. So if it is capable of being a bear alert dog, I may have to look into those. And as you said, probably has more to do with the individual dog's personality and early exposure to them than breed.

I've always thought grizzlies and browns were good fare, but have never eaten any. All the early 1800s books I've read speak of how they really enjoyed grizzlies and thought bull elk and bull buffler was poor eating. But they also really enjoyed Indian dogs after getting over the thought of it. But maybe those were actually really good. Surely a lot of it is the diet. I can say that raw horse, at least in Japan, is excellent.

 

[johnnycake]

Interesting. Seemingly far from all the other recs here. Does she point on alerting for bears? I know zilch about pointers.... So that maybe a stupid question. Google's summary of that dog breed's traits are appealing to me. So if it is capable of being a bear alert dog, I may have to look into those. And as you said, probably has more to do with the individual dog's personality and early exposure to them than breed.

I've always thought grizzlies and browns were good fare, but have never eaten any. All the early 1800s books I've read speak of how they really enjoyed grizzlies and thought bull elk and bull buffler was poor eating. But they also really enjoyed Indian dogs after getting over the thought of it. But maybe those were actually really good. Surely a lot of it is the diet. I can say that raw horse, at least in Japan, is excellent.

I didn't directly state what breed Ava is, largely because I don't think the breed is the most important factor for a grizzly alert/companion dog.

Ava does not point grizzlies. She comes to a heel, looks in the direction she thinks the bear is, and does a quiet but firm "gruff" until I acknowledge her. She does not do this with black bears. I used to go salmon fishing at night a lot on the Russian River with only her as a companion. I would put her on a down on the bank, wade out and fish. She would come out in the stream to warn me if a bear was coming. Saved me from being startled more times than I can count.

By contrast, my 2 yr old Karma most of the time when she detects a grizzly barks her head off and dances around like a moron. That might work for some folks, and certainly provides some level of distraction to the bear. But that's not what I want or need, so we have a lot more work to do to see if Karma can be dependably functional to be a bear hunting companion by the time Ava retires in the next several years.

 

[ohlongarm]

Interesting. Seemingly far from all the other recs here. Does she point on alerting for bears? I know zilch about pointers.... So that maybe a stupid question. Google's summary of that dog breed's traits are appealing to me. So if it is capable of being a bear alert dog, I may have to look into those. And as you said, probably has more to do with the individual dog's personality and early exposure to them than breed.

I've always thought grizzlies and browns were good fare, but have never eaten any. All the early 1800s books I've read speak of how they really enjoyed grizzlies and thought bull elk and bull buffler was poor eating. But they also really enjoyed Indian dogs after getting over the thought of it. But maybe those were actually really good. Surely a lot of it is the diet. I can say that raw horse, at least in Japan, is excellent.

These blacks at about 300lbs are fantastic, just make sure the internal temperature is high enough to kill any parasites.

 

[bigv]

Every pro trainer i have ran with say chesapeake are the hardest most stubborn not very smart but softest grudge holding dogs they have to deal with. Got to witness it first hand pre training for the grand last week. Most if they have been bitten by a dog it has been a chessy and usually for no apparent reason.

Ya I think they can be an issue. However I have known a couple that were opposite and a pro trainer I learned from thought the ones he worked with were great! Everyone has their own experience I guess. Supposedly breeders have tried to breed that 'guard dog" trait out of them? Thats why I thought would be good dog for companion hunter. Might be good, tough dog to ward off encounters.

* to note....most will say a chessie is highly intelligent. Smarter than labs. Just far more independent. They are softer in training so trainers have issues because they don't like pressure. Most pros have issues adapting to NOT using pressure. They don't Don't need it to do the job. They won't become robots like labs. That's not dumbness....its intelligence. My personal vet has dealt with several. Said they were wonderful. Only dogs she has concerns on biting are golden retrievers and german shepherds. But agreed....apparently they can be surly. Due to their market hunting/guard dog genes. Craig Fischer at Fischer Kennels in Mn has some good ones.

 

[The Ri Guy]

Our younger blackmouth is only 5, weighs maybe 40# wet, and squares up with anything that moves in the woods whether it be deer, a coyote pack, a bobcat, etc.

Walking the back 40 last night, pretty 2x3 Blacktai — youngster was on him two minutes before he popped out of the thick sh*t and crossed the fence.

 

[bigv]

What about some of those Alaskan Huskies? When I watch some of those alaskan shows...like life below 0 or whatever theyre called. Seems they always have those types around. They stick close. I have hunting labs and suspect they'd be poor simply because they always have their nose to the ground....hunting a scent etc. I bet they'd wander too much looking for whatever they catch a whiff of. Think you'd prefer a dog that hangs closer and isn't so much interested in hunting if that makes sense? Rhodesian Ridgeback!! Lion hounds of Africa! They are know to be great hiking dogs and fearless.

 

[johnnycake]

What about some of those Alaskan Huskies? When I watch some of those alaskan shows...like life below 0 or whatever theyre called. Seems they always have those types around. They stick close.

I wouldn't count on that. Also depends on your definition of "close" I guess.

 

[gbflyer]

This is pretty cool. Around the 12 minute mark is some good stuff dog-wise. I’ve known these folks for near 30 years as friends and neighbors. Might even make a few think twice about using that 77TMK for a brown bear lol.

 

[IronNoggin]

This is Boogs. Short for The Boogyman. Real name Amaruq.

He was 1/2 Timber Wolf (Yukon North Slope) and 1/2 Alaskan Husky (from a sled racing buddy in Inuvik). He weighed in at 145 pounds when mature - solid rock. He absolutely hated bears, and savaged them every time he got the opportunity. He was extremely fast and never got as much as a scratch from those he engaged. The same can not be said for the other side of the equation. He was full on attack - not simply barking or growling.

My wife and I have been living with 50 % Wolf Hybrids for over 40 years. They are NOT for everyone. They demand a LOT of attention, exercise and care. Most folks simply do not have the time nor understanding to bring out their full potential.

For those that do, there are no better Companions IMO. Incredibly intelligent, endurance beyond belief, and a full bonding to their Two Legs. Boogs ran off leash with me when fishing all the time. He was an excellent blood trailer, and recovered 14 bucks on our Island for hunting buddies. Miss him every single day!

This was his mate Asuilu (Companion in Western Inuit).
She was 1/2 Arctic Wolf (Victoria Island) and 1/4 Shepherd, 1/4 Lab.
Did not use her in the bush, but suffice it to say strangers stayed away from our place & my Lady.

This is a Family Portrait with one of their pups - Kimmiq.

We still have her.
She is the first Hybrid we have ever had to surpass 11 years of age.
Today she is 14 years and 8 months.
Slowing down but still chugging along.

Cheers

 

[bdg848]

I have no idea how “trainable” they are, probably mediocre, but Kangals are big, have booming bark, were bred for mountain terrain and for protecting livestock from wolves and the like.