Best bear defense ammo? & New Hornady Backcountry Defense/DGH?

[Koda_]

Got it. What about penetration? Wouldn’t a spritzer bullet have more penetration?

Only if it did not hit any bone.

 

[Formidilosus]

Got it. What about penetration? Wouldn’t a spritzer bullet have more penetration?

No, not usually. Spitzers will yaw (tumble) at some point in the penetration and then drastically reduce the total depth.

 

[Tmac]

Some dated, but interesting info here about penetration and meplat size.

https://www.garrettcartridges.com/commentaries.html

There are some concave large meplat solid bullets made, they are said to offer excellent straight line penetration and a larger wound channel than a flat meplat. Most are in African DG calibers. Swift and some others make them. Not sure if there would be applicability to pistol cartridges. Swift A-frame pistol bullets might be a good choice where available too. Basically a bonded partition, in revolver sizes, iirc.

 

[mtnbound]

I don't want to remember to grab a different mag or ammo when I go into the woods, so I carry the same ammo in the woods as I do in town, either Speer Gold Dot or Hornady Critical Duty. Both are very well-tested for LE and are barrier-blind.

 

[Koda_]

I don't want to remember to grab a different mag or ammo when I go into the woods, so I carry the same ammo in the woods as I do in town, either Speer Gold Dot or Hornady Critical Duty. Both are very well-tested for LE and are barrier-blind.

The last thing I would want for bear defense would be hollow points. Heres a true story of a 10mm vs black bear using Hornady Critical Dutys.

A New Mexico Bear Attack Finally Stopped With a GLOCK 10mm Pistol - The Truth About Guns

On morning of July 25, 2018, Bridger Petrini was out near the Colorado border, working his dogs for the upcoming New Mexico bear season. He had purchased his professional guide service eight years earlier from his father, who started it in 1985. Bear season would open in less than three weeks...

web.archive.org

 

[wyosam]

Some dated, but interesting info here about penetration and meplat size.

https://www.garrettcartridges.com/commentaries.html

There are some concave large meplat solid bullets made, they are said to offer excellent straight line penetration and a larger wound channel than a flat meplat. Most are in African DG calibers. Swift and some others make them. Not sure if there would be applicability to pistol cartridges. Swift A-frame pistol bullets might be a good choice where available too. Basically a bonded partition, in revolver sizes, iirc.

I know copper bullets don’t get much love here, but that sounds a lot like Hammer’s pistol bullet offerings. Wide meplat, slightly concave, designed to expand slight to caliber size (to meet some state’s requirements of expanding handgun bullets for hunting)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[cmert]

The last thing I would want for bear defense would be hollow points. Heres a true story of a 10mm vs black bear using Hornady Critical Dutys.

A New Mexico Bear Attack Finally Stopped With a GLOCK 10mm Pistol - The Truth About Guns

On morning of July 25, 2018, Bridger Petrini was out near the Colorado border, working his dogs for the upcoming New Mexico bear season. He had purchased his professional guide service eight years earlier from his father, who started it in 1985. Bear season would open in less than three weeks...

web.archive.org

Out of curiosity, was there a particular aspect of that event that deters you from the use of hollow points? Or is it just a general how you feel about it?

 

[Koda_]

Out of curiosity, was there a particular aspect of that event that deters you from the use of hollow points? Or is it just a general how you feel about it?

Mostly how I feel about it. The guy in the story made a few mistakes but it is a real life story using a 10mm that shows how it might not go down as planned even with the popular 10.
The general consensus that Ive read and heard for bear defense is you want deep penetrating rounds. Bears have thick hides and heavy bone that protect their vitals that need to be reached to have any effect beyond a flesh wound. A hollowpoint self defense projectile is not designed to pass thru, most are designed to achieve "FBI" penetration depths at most, and most fail at that. Even black bears are usually twice the size of human torsos.
The guy in the story chose to make body shots, with hollowpoints. I'm glad he survived but several of his choices worked against him.

 

[cmert]

Mostly how I feel about it. The guy in the story made a few mistakes but it is a real life story using a 10mm that shows how it might not go down as planned even with the popular 10.
The general consensus that Ive read and heard for bear defense is you want deep penetrating rounds. Bears have thick hides and heavy bone that protect their vitals that need to be reached to have any effect beyond a flesh wound. A hollowpoint self defense projectile is not designed to pass thru, most are designed to achieve "FBI" penetration depths at most, and most fail at that. Even black bears are usually twice the size of human torsos.
The guy in the story chose to make body shots, with hollowpoints. I'm glad he survived but several of his choices worked against him.

Gotcha, I agree that not all HPs are created equal and most aren't that great... Seems like the critical duty is about as good as they get.

And totally agree that there were decisions made that lead to the attack potentially lasting longer as there's only one way to stop an attack from a highly motivated bear immediately and that shots through the brain/spinal cord.

In my experience, albeit rather limited, I didn't notice that a grizzly bear hide was any thicker than any other animal I've broken down. A lot of hair, yes but the skin was relatively thin, like most predator hides.

In my "studies" recently, I found a picture of a cross section of a Kodiak brown bear and it shows that the bone of the skull, especially on the top of the head, is quite thin but there is the section of something between the outermost bone and the bone of the actual brain cavity. In the dead head it's hollow so not sure if it's part of the nasal cavity and always hollow or if it's filled with something with some substance when it's alive. I plan to investigate this myself with the next bear I kill. Maybe even do some testing with different bullets on an actual fresh bear skull with hide and flesh in tact.

Aside from glancing blows which clearly happen even with rifle rounds, likely from hitting the thickest part of bone that makes a perfect "bullet ramp", I'd think a quality JHP that can go through auto glass and still expand and penetrate 12 - 18" of gel should have no problem going through maybe a 1/2" of bone collectively... In theory of course.

 

[Koda_]

In my "studies" recently, I found a picture of a cross section of a Kodiak brown bear and it shows that the bone of the skull, especially on the top of the head, is quite thin but there is the section of something between the outermost bone and the bone of the actual brain cavity. In the dead head it's hollow so not sure if it's part of the nasal cavity and always hollow or if it's filled with something with some substance when it's alive. I plan to investigate this myself with the next bear I kill. Maybe even do some testing with different bullets on an actual fresh bear skull with hide and flesh in tact.

Aside from glancing blows which clearly happen even with rifle rounds, likely from hitting the thickest part of bone that makes a perfect "bullet ramp", I'd think a quality JHP that can go through auto glass and still expand and penetrate 12 - 18" of gel should have no problem going through maybe a 1/2" of bone collectively... In theory of course.

good cross section pic, I think that space is filled with sinus tissue but regardless its like a double bone layer to get to the brain (cns) area.

There's no true predicting what any bullet will do if not perfectly placed... which is virtually never going to happen under stress of attack. A hollowpoint might penetrate the first sinus cavity but as its designed to expand and dump its energy it might not make it to the brain. There might be a perfect hollowpoint out there but too many variables to test all hollowpoints, I'll stick with bullets designed for deep bone breaking penetration.

 

[Formidilosus]

Mostly how I feel about it.

That’s the crux of it. I am not even saying you are wrong about bullets below, just that how you feel about it, is based on incorrect beliefs.

Bears have thick hides and heavy bone

No they don’t. Their bones are thin- you can see your hand through a brown bear scapula, and they resume human bones much more so than any other common NA mammal. Nearly all predators are lightly boned, with much thinner skin than prey animals.

that protect their vitals that need to be reached to have any effect beyond a flesh wound.

Have you ever taken a bear apart?

Even black bears are usually twice the size of human torsos.

What? No. Bears are much smaller in actual body than people think. Most of what you see is fur. Even large black bears have small body cavities.

This is a normal western black bear-




They are taller from bottom of chest to top of back, than they are wide.

 

[Formidilosus]

good cross section pic, I think that space is filled with sinus tissue but regardless its like a double bone layer to get to the brain (cns) area.

Cartilage does not equal bone.

A hollowpoint might penetrate the first sinus cavity but as it’s designed to expand and dump its energy

That is not at all what proven barrier blind ammunition is designed to do. They are designed to penetrate a minimum of 12” (usually 14-18”) of straight line penetration after going through barriers such as raked and angled auto-glass- which is much harder on bullets than any bone. It is not hard to find FBI accepted barrier blind ammo that penetrates 16-18” after auto-glass.

it might not make it to the brain. There might be a perfect hollowpoint out there but too many variables to test all hollowpoints,

FBI duty ammo is literally tested way beyond what any “bear bullets” are tested to.

I'll stick with bullets designed for deep bone breaking penetration.

That’s fine. And maybe that is the best option. However, the belief that bullets such as hard cast are better for stopping bear attacks is not based on any comparative data at all against proper barrier blind handgun ammunition.

 

[Koda_]

So are we saying hollowpoints are the better choice for bear defense than penetrators?

 

[Beendare]

I've shot a pile of charging Hogs with 158g hollow points from a .357 that ricocheted off of their skulls with disappointing results.

I'm a believer in hard cast wide meplat ammo for bear defense after testing it on various hard objects

 

[Tmac]

I know copper bullets don’t get much love here, but that sounds a lot like Hammer’s pistol bullet offerings. Wide meplat, slightly concave, designed to expand slight to caliber size (to meet some state’s requirements of expanding handgun bullets for hunting)


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The bullets I was referring to are not really designed to expand, although on some recovered pictures I’ve seen, they do deform some and maybe expand just a little. Not familiar with Hammer pistol bullets.

 

[Thegman]

I never really considered these very seriously, but I wonder how they would do for resisting deflection (?). Supposedly they're pretty good for that, but I haven't looked into them very much. I did read something from someone up here in AK who said they tested a lot of bullets and settled on these for bear defense handgun bullets. I don't know what their testing was though.

.355 diameter, 115 grain Xtreme Penetrator Bullets (100 count)

The progressive nose geometry of this bullet allows for deep, straight penetration while creating a permanent wound cavity diameter exceeding that of most expanding bullets. This bullet is optimal for use in 9mm Luger and .38 Super loads.

lehighdefense.com

 

[wyosam]

The bullets I was referring to are not really designed to expand, although on some recovered pictures I’ve seen, they do deform some and maybe expand just a little. Not familiar with Hammer pistol bullets.

That’s about all they do- they only include that “expansion” capability in the description so they are legal to hunt with in places that require expanding bullets.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Koda_]

Not familiar with Hammer pistol bullets.

For deep penetration bear defense for the handloaders here I think the 150gn "Jackhammer" would be a devastating round with its sharp edge meplat and solid material.

.400 (10mm) Cal-150gr Jack Hammer™ - Hammer Bullets

This pure copper Jack Hammer™ is designed for the very popular 10mm semi-auto handgun. It will also work well in the 40 Smith and Wesson. The Jack Hammer™ is designed for deep penetration and large wound channels from the cupped nose design making it a very lethal personal protection bullet.

hammerbullets.com

 

[mtnbound]

The last thing I would want for bear defense would be hollow points. Heres a true story of a 10mm vs black bear using Hornady Critical Dutys.

A New Mexico Bear Attack Finally Stopped With a GLOCK 10mm Pistol - The Truth About Guns

On morning of July 25, 2018, Bridger Petrini was out near the Colorado border, working his dogs for the upcoming New Mexico bear season. He had purchased his professional guide service eight years earlier from his father, who started it in 1985. Bear season would open in less than three weeks...

web.archive.org

The facts of this encounter are the first shots were in the bear's side, and even if you went with some ultra-penetrating bullet, the wound cavity would be smaller with less tissue damage compared to the HP. While those shots to the bear's side could eventually cause death, they were not going to stop the attack immediately, especially when he stopped shooting and started running. The one bullet to the head penetrated the skull and stopped the attack.
If the guy had shot the bear in the head during the first engagement, the same thing would have happened instant lights out, and those bullets would be in everyone's pistol.
I think that the fact that this bullet penetrated the bear's skull would give you and anyone else confidence that, in a real encounter, they will penetrate and KILL.
I find it funny that someone would use a true story in which the bullet performed as designed and stopped the attack and yet say they would never use the bullet.
Use whatever you can shoot accurately and give you the most confidence; for me, that will be HCD or SGD.

 

[kpk]

@Formidilosus

Thoughts on the Lehigh Xtreme Penetrators vs a hard cast flat nose? And you're using a 9 or 45 in grizzly country instead of a 10?

I carried a Glock 20 in grizzly areas and a Glock 19 in non grizz area. It's a noticeable difference in size/weight a couple days in and I've been debating just using the 19 going forward. I shoot both of them well.