Shadowstalker
FNG
- Joined
- Nov 22, 2024
- Messages
- 11
I thought about this a long time before I posted, but in the end I just want to give a report on our experience with Mark Werner of BC Guide Outfitters. Three of us that are longtime hunting buddies that after years of talking about it, finally pulled the trigger on a Guided Canadian Moose Hunt. After talking with several guides at the 2022 Portland Sportsman show, we decided to go with Mark Werner of BC Guide Outfitters, he certainly wasn't the cheapest but his booth, marketing material, pictures, and sales pitch sold us and we put down the deposits for a 2024 hunt. 2 of us would be on a 7 day 2:1 guided Moose Hunt for $9500.00 USD each, and the other would be doing a 7 day 1 :1 guided Deer and Bear hunt for $6,000.00 USD. The hunt would be from the 9/21-9/28, because "the week before the rut is one of the most productive times". The deposits were enough to keep us from backing out: $2,500.00 for each moose hunter, and $1,000.00 for the Deer/Bear. After getting the deposits and cashing the check, things went south.
We had to remind Mark constantly of who was hunting with who, for what species, deposits paid, amounts owing, and get him to send the email detailing all this with our reservation forms, instructions, etc... This went on thru at least August. Per his schedule we had the balances paid by the 2024 Sportsman Show.
Some of the main selling points from marketing materials, his website, and conversations were:
You are probably wondering where Mark (the owner) was during this. First he showed up pretty late after we got there, then he ended up being the cook for a 2 days; And then at the last minute decided to guide a deer and bear hunt for a very wealthy German hunter (who flew in by helicopter) because he had finished a Yukon moose and caribou hunt early. Mark guided for 2 days, and then suddenly had to leave due to a windstorm at home. All of us are convinced that he left because he knew the dissatisfaction in his hunters.
How did we do?
The 2 moose hunters (myself and the brother of the deer/bear hunter) never saw a four legged animal, much less a moose. The deer/bear hunter saw a cow moose for a 1/4 second while it crossed the road. The 95% and 100% success rates quoted are a complete lie. British Columbia keeps very accurate Harvest Statistics;
https://catalogue.data.gov.bc.ca/da...arvest-statistics-1976-to-current/resource/93daf681-ec55-4c7f-bfda-a621f67b5cea
and it appears the success rates for guided hunters in his areas was 18% and 22%. Incidentally there were no recent pictures on the wall at the lodge, everything was from 2018 and before. The German Hunter never saw an animal and was flabbergasted by the lack of animals.
We paid Matthew for our Harvest Royalty fees in USD and without the benefit of the conversion rate even though per his FAQ's "its due upon successful harvest of the animal" We are convinced those monies went into the guides gas tanks, because "Mark doesn't reimburse us for our gas until the end of the season".
We tried contacting Mark twice by phone and text on the last day of the hunt only to be sent to Voicemail. We tried another 4 times (via text, phone, and letter) over the next 3 weeks only to get the response that he was busy guiding other hunters and how he was impacted by the windstorm at his house, and said he would contact us "around Nov 1st". 3 text over the last 10 days and we haven't heard a thing.
During this time I contacted the Guide Outfitters Association of British Columbia (GOABC) because he markets that he was President during 2012 (?); they oversee the 175+ Guides and Outfitters of British Columbia. The CEO let me know he hasn't been a member for a few years even though Mark alludes that he still is in his contract and advertising. While they didn't use these words exactly, it was due to complaints and lack of resolution within their Code of Ethics.
We are not newbies at hunting. We are all 60, in good shape, pretty easy going, successful hunters who put the time in for that success, and combined we have about 142 years of hunting experience. Collectively we paid him and his guides over $28,500.00 USD in guide/Outfitter fees, License, Tags, Harvest Fees, and tips (yes we still tipped the guides), and spent another $2,000.00 in Diesel, Hotels, and Food. This is not a case of poor timing, low populations, winter kill, or even bad luck. It’s simply a case of a guide not preparing his territory all summer like he claims, inexperienced guides, and not focusing on his Guiding/Outfitter business. I am just letting you know our experience and opinion with this Outfitter.
Jim Delmore
We had to remind Mark constantly of who was hunting with who, for what species, deposits paid, amounts owing, and get him to send the email detailing all this with our reservation forms, instructions, etc... This went on thru at least August. Per his schedule we had the balances paid by the 2024 Sportsman Show.
Some of the main selling points from marketing materials, his website, and conversations were:
- 95% and 100% Moose success rates
- "Over the years I have learned that the difference between successful and unsuccessful outfitters is the amount of time spent in the field prepping before the hunt.” Publication/Handout and Website
- “For BC guide outfitters preseason is about maintaining and opening new trails.” Publication/Handout
- “our guides are very experienced professional guides”. Direct quote
- “we’ve been out all summer clearing trails and getting the camps ready.” Direct quote to me the week before our hunt after trying for over 3 weeks to get a return a phone call or text.
- “The Client gives the Outfitter permission to release my personal information and photos to the Guide Outfitters Association of BC”. From the Contract
- “One of the secrets of our success has been that we are full time Outfitters. This is what we do. We spend from April to November in our camps and our territory, cutting trails, hauling in boats to remote lakes and building camps in the backcountry. We are also on the landscape scouting all season long. That is the difference between a full time operator and those that show up the week before the hunt and throw it all together.” From website
- “That gives you 7 full days of hunting.” We are still trying to understand how Sunday morning thru Friday night is considered 7 full days of hunting
- “Royalties are not includes and they are only due and payable upon successful harvest of your animal.” From Frequently Asked Questions
- “We didn’t get up here until a few days ago because we were doing Mark’s Wildlife Monitoring (said on our first night) to start getting base camp ready”
- “We were so busy with Marks wildlife monitoring business we didn’t have time to get a cook”
You are probably wondering where Mark (the owner) was during this. First he showed up pretty late after we got there, then he ended up being the cook for a 2 days; And then at the last minute decided to guide a deer and bear hunt for a very wealthy German hunter (who flew in by helicopter) because he had finished a Yukon moose and caribou hunt early. Mark guided for 2 days, and then suddenly had to leave due to a windstorm at home. All of us are convinced that he left because he knew the dissatisfaction in his hunters.
How did we do?
The 2 moose hunters (myself and the brother of the deer/bear hunter) never saw a four legged animal, much less a moose. The deer/bear hunter saw a cow moose for a 1/4 second while it crossed the road. The 95% and 100% success rates quoted are a complete lie. British Columbia keeps very accurate Harvest Statistics;
https://catalogue.data.gov.bc.ca/da...arvest-statistics-1976-to-current/resource/93daf681-ec55-4c7f-bfda-a621f67b5cea
and it appears the success rates for guided hunters in his areas was 18% and 22%. Incidentally there were no recent pictures on the wall at the lodge, everything was from 2018 and before. The German Hunter never saw an animal and was flabbergasted by the lack of animals.
We paid Matthew for our Harvest Royalty fees in USD and without the benefit of the conversion rate even though per his FAQ's "its due upon successful harvest of the animal" We are convinced those monies went into the guides gas tanks, because "Mark doesn't reimburse us for our gas until the end of the season".
We tried contacting Mark twice by phone and text on the last day of the hunt only to be sent to Voicemail. We tried another 4 times (via text, phone, and letter) over the next 3 weeks only to get the response that he was busy guiding other hunters and how he was impacted by the windstorm at his house, and said he would contact us "around Nov 1st". 3 text over the last 10 days and we haven't heard a thing.
During this time I contacted the Guide Outfitters Association of British Columbia (GOABC) because he markets that he was President during 2012 (?); they oversee the 175+ Guides and Outfitters of British Columbia. The CEO let me know he hasn't been a member for a few years even though Mark alludes that he still is in his contract and advertising. While they didn't use these words exactly, it was due to complaints and lack of resolution within their Code of Ethics.
We are not newbies at hunting. We are all 60, in good shape, pretty easy going, successful hunters who put the time in for that success, and combined we have about 142 years of hunting experience. Collectively we paid him and his guides over $28,500.00 USD in guide/Outfitter fees, License, Tags, Harvest Fees, and tips (yes we still tipped the guides), and spent another $2,000.00 in Diesel, Hotels, and Food. This is not a case of poor timing, low populations, winter kill, or even bad luck. It’s simply a case of a guide not preparing his territory all summer like he claims, inexperienced guides, and not focusing on his Guiding/Outfitter business. I am just letting you know our experience and opinion with this Outfitter.
Jim Delmore
