Back Suspensions and Belts

[123 4/8 P&Y]

I just have one question: Is the lumbar pad supposed to feel like someone's knee stuck in your back? The more weight I'm carrying, the worse that gets.

I know you returned your frame already, but they would've sent you a thinner lumbar pad to try.

 

[RockChucker30]

Are you hunched over because of the pack? I can usually stand upright with 156 lbs with my duplex or bikini. It could be the angle of the photo?

I wrote a detailed essay of my thoughts on backpack suspension design on our own forum in case anyone wants to see my thoughts.

Backpack Suspension Design


Aron, that photo was self taken on a steep hillside, and the angle probably isn't the greatest. But the biggest reason I wasn't standing upright was because I wanted to portray a real life image of what that kind of load is like.

I weigh 180 lbs. Assuming that 40% of my weight is in my legs and 60% is in my torso and upper body, then my upper body weighs 108 lbs. I was carrying 156 lbs on my back. Since that load is heavier than my upper body to balance my center of gravity I have to lean forward a bit, unless I carry more weight up front.

I can stand perfectly upright and pose for the camera while wearing that weight, but once that weight is in motion some lean to maintain COG is inevitable. I wanted the photo to be real.

What is important to note in the original photo is the angle and position of the belt.

Excuse the crappy blown up cell phone pic. I hope you can see that the belt is centered over my iliac crests, and the belt is horizontal on my body....the load is not causing any deformation in the belt.

 

[5MilesBack]

I know you returned your frame already, but they would've sent you a thinner lumbar pad to try.

The thing is........it felt great "completely without" the lumbar pad. I even loaded 120lbs in the DT1 bag on the Bikini and it felt pretty good without the pad. Sure, it sagged in back......but no knee in my back. Any thickness pad just puts pressure on me, or the wrong spot. Might be those bone spurs in my lumbar region.......but it is what it is. One piece belts feel perfectly fine. I've hauled some pretty heavy loads in my Bull-Pac frame and it has no pad whatsoever......but it also has no load lifters.

For me, I just do whatever I have to do to get the job done. I always used to say......"there's the right way, the wrong way, and my dad's way". Well, I'm almost 49 and have become my dad. It may not be right, it may not be wrong........but regardless I'm getting it done.......my way.

 

[Aron Snyder]

I just have one question: Is the lumbar pad supposed to feel like someone's knee stuck in your back? The more weight I'm carrying, the worse that gets.

The thing to do would have been call me and I would meet up with you to get the fit perfect.

We can do anything with the frame and belt (if you call us), so if you need a straight frame, no lumbar pad, giant lumbar pad, intermediate lumbar pad, specific bend or longer frame, we can do it.

I'm guessing you ordered the frame, tried it on and didn't like the lumbar pad. At that point, if I'd known, I would have drove down to Colorado Springs to get you fitted (that type of customer service goes along with the price of the frame, but very needed). About 99% of the time we can handle fitting questions over the phone in a very short period of time. But if we don't know, we can't advise.

Your situation is definitely not normal, but it would be great to chat with you either way.

Just taking a guess, but I would guess you've never used a pack with a lumbar pad and from what I've seen you post, you've only used packs that have no real suspension system. Again, would be great to chat with you about all of this instead of me guessing.

Feel free to call anytime (720-937-1418)

 

[Aron Snyder]

I'm not sure your mathematical equation is 100% correct, as I weigh 192 and can walk upright with that type of load. I have a few videos of packing out loads that I'll find showing this. It could also just be our body types and core strengths are different as well. When I'm packing out animals, math is usually the last thing on my mind, so it could be the "get r done" mentality too.

We're planning on doing a comparative test between the Exo and Paradox soon, so we'll have a few different body type use both suspensions and belts to get feedback on this.

I've tried the self photo thing with heavy loads.....it sucks!

I wrote a detailed essay of my thoughts on backpack suspension design on our own forum in case anyone wants to see my thoughts.

Backpack Suspension Design


Aron, that photo was self taken on a steep hillside, and the angle probably isn't the greatest. But the biggest reason I wasn't standing upright was because I wanted to portray a real life image of what that kind of load is like.

I weigh 180 lbs. Assuming that 40% of my weight is in my legs and 60% is in my torso and upper body, then my upper body weighs 108 lbs. I was carrying 156 lbs on my back. Since that load is heavier than my upper body to balance my center of gravity I have to lean forward a bit, unless I carry more weight up front.

I can stand perfectly upright and pose for the camera while wearing that weight, but once that weight is in motion some lean to maintain COG is inevitable. I wanted the photo to be real.

What is important to note in the original photo is the angle and position of the belt.

Excuse the crappy blown up cell phone pic. I hope you can see that the belt is centered over my iliac crests, and the belt is horizontal on my body....the load is not causing any deformation in the belt.

 

[Justin Crossley]

This 2012 pack weighed 131 lbs on a scale. (only thing inside is my scalpel and elk meat)

Luckily for me it was under 1/2 mile because I was way out of shape on that one. Even with my core being very weak in that photo, I was still only leaning slightly.

 

[5MilesBack]

Again, would be great to chat with you about all of this instead of me guessing.

I've got some testing to do this summer, but if it doesn't work out very well, I will definitely hook up with you and maybe try again. You are correct......I've never used a lumbar pad because every time I try a pack on with one.......there's that knee in my back.......even empty. I went over and tried Jake's Duplex frame the other day because he has the flat back stays.....thought it might feel different. Same thing.....giant lumbar pad stuck in my back.

 

[Rizzy]

I'm 6 foot and 165 pounds (168 after a good meal)

In talking with Aron a while back, I've learned that getting the right belt size makes a big difference too. I had a medium belt on my KU3700 and it was very comfortable, even with heavier loads. I lost 5 pounds that summer and ran out of adjustment on the belt.
When I ordered my Bikini frame I requested a small belt and the bikini does not seem to be as comfortable, especially 60-80 range for 3+ miles. I got a little black and blue in the hips with this years Elk packout. So I will be going back to a medium belt like Kifaru recommended in the first place

 

[jmez]

I think the amount of bend has more to do with your strength than pack design. It also makes a heavy pack easier to carry if you lean into the weight a little.

 

[hammer0419]

I have been a Kifaru user for at least 15 years. I will only use Kifaru packs for two reasons. 1) Incredible fit. 2) Unmatched comfort. There are many quality made packs but for me none fit and carry like Kifaru. That is why my MR Longbow is mounted to my Kifaru Bikini Frame. However, the new EXO frame has caught my attention!

 

[hammer0419]

I'm 6 foot and 165 pounds (168 after a good meal)

In talking with Aron a while back, I've learned that getting the right belt size makes a big difference too. I had a medium belt on my KU3700 and it was very comfortable, even with heavier loads. I lost 5 pounds that summer and ran out of adjustment on the belt.
When I ordered my Bikini frame I requested a small belt and the bikini does not seem to be as comfortable, especially 60-80 range for 3+ miles. I got a little black and blue in the hips with this years Elk packout. So I will be going back to a medium belt like Kifaru recommended in the first place

You are correct. Having that padding wrapped around as far as possible really makes a comfort difference. I am one who could use a medium but the large feels much better. it is however close to touching. When summer comes and I shed some weight I may have to change out for a medium.

 

[slim9300]

I am 6' 3" and after a week in the backcountry I'm lucky to weigh over 165 lbs. Over the last three years I have packed out 12 elk with my Kifaru packs between my partner and I, and all of them came out in halves. I used to have a few packs with 1 piece belts and they always slipped down my hips with anything over 70 lbs and greatly reduced my ability to comfortably carry heavy loads. Once I was able to get my Kifaru suspension adjusted perfectly, I would never consider going back to the one piece belt.

I think a lot of people struggle with the lumbar pad because the angle of their stays is not correct for their back/body. Once you are able to find a way to adjust the stays and/or suspension to place that lumbar pad perfectly flat with heavy loads on your lower back, you have perfection. This took work for me, and requires the flat back stays.

 

[hammer0419]

Well said slim. Almost all of my Kifaru packs were the standard bend aluminum stays. I would always tweak them here and there to get a good fit. Once I purchased the Bikini frame heavy loads were KILLINGme in the lumbar area. Something I had never felt before. I tried a smaller lumbar pad which initially helped but not 100%. Never did to think I had a flat back but I decided to try the Flat back bikini frame. Low and behold it "squared up" the lumbar pad to my back. Now the lumbar pad sat flush to my back putting "EVEN" pressure against my back. Complete comfort ever since!!

 

[ScottR_EHJ]

I will chime in on this one, I thought it would be a great idea to torture test my body last summer so all of you could read about my findings.

-100lbs is heavy, shoot 80lbs is heavy. It is not going to matter what pack you put on, it is going to be heavy under these kinds of weight. Regardless of brand, preference, or body shape it is necessary to understand that a heavy pack is a heavy pack!

-Belt, suspension, padding, or whatever other comfort features won't matter a bit if you don't take the time to tune all of it in to your body shape. Spend time watching videos, reading instructions, and whatever else is needed to fit the pack to the body it will be on.

With all of this said, here are some thoughts on belts, etc.

I am lucky enough to have a body that multiple belts fit well. Honestly, comfort under a heavy load, for me, had more to do with how hard the padding material was vs. the 3 piece, 2 piece, or full wrap style.

Paradox has a soft feel, that cinches down well on the hips. I would have absolutely no reservation about hauling a load for multiple miles. Get the right size belt, and you should be comfortable.

Stone Glacier made a big step in the right direction with the addition of the three piece belt. It fits me right and I look forward to really testing it this spring during bear season.

Mystery Ranch didn't fit me well. The padding was hard and it wasn't my favorite, and I packed some brutal loads this season in several MR models. However, some people swear by them, so they have to fit some guys well.

Kifaru's pad can be thick, but that is an option you can change. The pad will also break in to the body it is on over time, the Bikini we used for the review worked really well.

All to say, my opinion is that multiple brands can work well, just make sure it fits your body and that you understand that a heavy load sucks not matter what pack you have.

 

[Aron Snyder]

I will chime in on this one, I thought it would be a great idea to torture test my body last summer so all of you could read about my findings.

-100lbs is heavy, shoot 80lbs is heavy. It is not going to matter what pack you put on, it is going to be heavy under these kinds of weight. Regardless of brand, preference, or body shape it is necessary to understand that a heavy pack is a heavy pack!

-Belt, suspension, padding, or whatever other comfort features won't matter a bit if you don't take the time to tune all of it in to your body shape. Spend time watching videos, reading instructions, and whatever else is needed to fit the pack to the body it will be on.

With all of this said, here are some thoughts on belts, etc.

I am lucky enough to have a body that multiple belts fit well. Honestly, comfort under a heavy load, for me, had more to do with how hard the padding material was vs. the 3 piece, 2 piece, or full wrap style.

Paradox has a soft feel, that cinches down well on the hips. I would have absolutely no reservation about hauling a load for multiple miles. Get the right size belt, and you should be comfortable.

Stone Glacier made a big step in the right direction with the addition of the three piece belt. It fits me right and I look forward to really testing it this spring during bear season.

Mystery Ranch didn't fit me well. The padding was hard and it wasn't my favorite, and I packed some brutal loads this season in several MR models. However, some people swear by them, so they have to fit some guys well.

Kifaru's pad can be thick, but that is an option you can change. The pad will also break in to the body it is on over time, the Bikini we used for the review worked really well.

All to say, my opinion is that multiple brands can work well, just make sure it fits your body and that you understand that a heavy load sucks not matter what pack you have.

So what was your favorite?

 

[ScottR_EHJ]

Go to www.24hourcampfire.com and read the graph on how both of us scored all the belts. I will post bigger pictures when i have a some time to resize and make them bigger.

 

[luke moffat]

Sreekers,

I thought you liked the Paradox best as thats the one you said you WILL be buying once the new bags come out.

At least thats what I read in your 2nd to last post in this thread:

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/8388074/

 

[Wrongside]

Guess I must not be very fussy. I've been very content with 3 piece belts over the years. As long as the rest of the pack was up to snuff, and I could get the belt tight enough around my scrawny waist, they've worked just fine for me. Last fall I did get to spend a month or so with a 1 piece hip belt pack. It worked fine too. Comfortable and supported a load well. I ended up buying one for my own uses and look forward to more extensive time under load with it this winter and especially come spring bear season...

 

[dotman]

Sreekers,

I thought you liked the Paradox best as thats the one you said you WILL be buying once the new bags come out.

At least thats what I read in your 2nd to last post in this thread:

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/8388074/

I think he liked the SG best and would use it as his main pack but will be buying a paradox. Looks like his buddy and wife liked the Kifaru the best.

Scott, sounds like you are really liking the new three piece belt from SG, how much weight have you tested it with and does if fail with weight over 60lbs?

 

[dotman]

Scott I'll help you out, below is from 24hr. Not my post but the below is sreekers.





Ok, time to do my best to answer the "Jack of All Trades" question.

The short answer is no, I don't believe that there is one pack that can do absolutely everything. I do however believe that it is possible to find a pack that will do just about everything an individual user wants it to do.

For this review, well I will probably reach for the SG the most when packing for a hunt or scouting trip. But that doesn't mean it will be the best for every application. For a wet trip I would want the Paradox, hands down. Deer season this year was really wet and I would have liked to use it then. My wife loved the Kifaru, and it was comfortable for me too. When the SG wouldn't cut it size wise, this pack would be my top choice. All about trade offs and options.

This is why we put the graphs together, you know what is important for you. Once you know, sync it up to the graph. If these packs were on your short list, you have a great tool to figure our what is your best option.

Nevada kept the Kifaru, for his style and body shape it was what he wanted. I kept the SG because I really liked what it had to offer and am pretty excited to try out some of the new bags they will be offering. I WILL be buying a Paradox, especially with the new bag options coming soon. Nevada has told me that he intends to try one as well, and is really looking forward to seeing the changes they made after we shipped the pack off.

The MR will be traded off soon, I have never used the Timberline series from Kifaru, and I found someone who wanted to try the Metcalf.

I have seen it documented fairly well here that you all like to buy knives, so this analogy may work pretty well. Gerber and Leatherman make some pretty sweet multi-tools. We look at what tools they have, how many blades, and how many functions they have. My Dad will only use a Gerber while I don't have much brand loyalty. To him that is important. We could go in shopping on the same day and buy two very different multi-tools from different companies and be happy customers.

Packs are the same way, and it may take you a few tries to get the one that you like the best. I am a gear nut and will likely keep buying packs until I am too old to be in the mountains. I doubt I will ever find a perfect pack, but I will probably find a few that I will have a VERY hard time parting with. Those will be the ones that stand out in my mind as "Jack of All Trades" packs.
_________________________
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