B&C line for Sitka vs Columbia......agreement?

[Jesse Jaymes]

Popping into this forum with no real knowledge. But will say a mature, black headed, white throated Blacktail possibly my Grail deer.

Lived in western WA around Bellingham for 3 years and visit on occasion. Hunted POW for Blacktail also.

I could google but where is the line for Sitka vs Columbia Blacktail? My inquiry stems from basic body type and antler configuration. Think I disagree pretty strongly.

The California deer look TOTALLY different. Are all the BT classed the same from CA up through the WA coast and into BC before they are broken out into Sitka class?

 

[MeatBuck]

I notice different looking blacktails within the California b&c blacktail boundary. Some short faced, some dark faced, some lighter, some double throat patch, some big dark 150+lb, long bodied, long faced, some with a short 120lb body and lighter buckskin coat, some have the opposite, some with a forky gene, some a 3pt gene, and some good clean 4pt genetics.
I'm sure every population has some mix of mule or whitetail or Sitka or Columbian in its genes.
Are there more subspecies of bt like the 6 mule deer subspecies in California? Or just a different gene showing? Or does the look change from geographical regions that the deer have adapted to? All of the above?

Here's an example of a mature a zone buck jaw (left) and a mature b zone buck jaw.

 

[bowuntr]

Here's a link to the boundary line. https://www.boone-crockett.org/bgRecords/records_boundaries.asp?area=bgRecords

B&C and P&Y have DNA tested (hunters request) about 15 bucks in California and only one buck east of the blacktail/mule deer tested convincingly Columbia Blacktail deer. That deer was from a C Zone. The rest of the deer were hybrids. This supports that the line was drawn to error on the side of the smaller deer, the Columbia Blacktail deer. Ed F

 

[Fonkie]

I live & hunt Blacktails on the north Washington coast. Many of our bucks resemble the Sitka Blacktail in coloring & antler structure & are nothing like the Blacktail deer of southern Oregon & Northern California. Here’s a classic example of one that resembles a Sitka that I harvested this year.

 

[Downwind]

All blacktails in the lower 48 are Columbia blacktails. Sitkas have a very short range. The variation has more to do with interbreeding with mule deer. I live in British Columbia and most of our blacktails are Columbias. The lowest place Sitkas come are essentially Haida Gwaii and that distance to Washington state is the length of Texas.


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[Jesse Jaymes]

Tried to decipher it last night. If reading it correctly....Columbias are coastal all the way up through BC to the AK mainland? Yea.....those are not even close to the same deer encountered in California.

 

[Downwind]

Tried to decipher it last night. If reading it correctly....Columbias are coastal all the way up through BC to the AK mainland? Yea.....those are not even close to the same deer encountered in California.

All blacktails are coastal. Sitkas only live from mid coast of BC up through into AK. Difference in Columbias from state to state just has to do with genetics and habitat. Same reason why a northern BC whitetail can weigh well over 300 pounds and a southern whitetail might only weigh 150.


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[Blacktail_Packer]

There’s a guy in Oregon that wrote a book with something like 6 blacktail subspecies in it. That said in the area we hunt I see everything from our average blacktail to the long thorough bread lookin ones, then there’s the little puppy dog sized things I see a lot in A-zone. I lived in Cazadero ca for a while and it changed my opinion of A-zone deer, there are real blacktail populations around A-zone.

It seems to me like if you get into an area with more harsh weather they look more like a “mountain buck” or Sitka

 

[Jesse Jaymes]

Having hunted both northern coastal Washington and Prince of Wales...the habitat between the two is very similar. I've only passed through CA once. But the pics I see of guys with BT look often desert and scrub, or the rolling ranches I envision like Tejon and the CA Hog Country.....I don't see ANY similarity there.

Was really just for my education, again, I am not hard wired and die hard hunter of Black Tail. A fan more than anything. Just ever agreed that central California vs northwestern Washington should compete for "score". Look like drastically different deer to me.

 

[ThrowawayPNW]

Downwind comes with the correct in this thread