Avery vs. JvB - Podcast Back and Forths

[RyanT26]

So now you're a "pansy boy and weakling" if you shoot a 6mm. New episode was just as infuriating as the rest of them. They love to pick at the fringes of the debate and make a bunch of straw man arguments. Real annoying.

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I wasn’t going to listen, but you’re talking me into it. Lol

 

[Swampcruiser]

So now you're a "pansy boy and weakling" if you shoot a 6mm. New episode was just as infuriating as the rest of them. They love to pick at the fringes of the debate and make a bunch of straw man arguments. Real annoying.

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Yes, just like your called a fudd here if you use a 30-06.

 

[eric1115]

Yes, just like your called a fudd here if you use a 30-06.

Can you show an example of this?

You might get called a Fudd if you claim that the .30-06 is needed for reliable killing, or that less than a .30-06 is unethical, but simply using or preferring it is not something I've seen called out (other than just some good natured ball-busting).

 

[mitchellmountain]

It was a verbal septic tank.


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I listened to it, it wasn't good. Nathan Foster is a ballistic expert , I guess, but I've read some articles and a couple books too. That's about as much expertise I garnered from the podcast. Men now are soft, they don't enjoy carrying 10 pound rifles and heavy recoil, like men should. Any shooter with enough practice and determination should come to love the 338 win mag and heavy bullets, which is what is needed for Sambar stag( cow elk sized game). Heck he witnessed a goat( farm variety) take a 223 60gr soft point in the ham, and the animal didn't seem to notice , so it's too small. That's my criticism with a good dose of sarcasm.
Now for the part that makes me scratch my head. JVB is a good writer, I don't mind and even enjoy his articles, but the podcast is not comparable in quality. There is a point I this episode where he talks about editors adding to the accuracy of his articles, but the point is completely lost on him. He's obviously intelligent, but man he's got some blind spots. I think he's holding onto what he's always aspired to as a standard of performance. It's hard to change course, admit that what you know might not be the end all of knowledge.
A part of me wants to ridicule him for it, because it is actually annoying, but I've got some blind spots too that I hope to become aware of in the future.

My 2 cents

 

[B_Reynolds_AK]

I listened to it, it wasn't good. Nathan Foster is a ballistic expert , I guess, but I've read some articles and a couple books too. That's about as much expertise I garnered from the podcast. Men now are soft, they don't enjoy carrying 10 pound rifles and heavy recoil, like men should. Any shooter with enough practice and determination should come to love the 338 win mag and heavy bullets, which is what is needed for Sambar stag( cow elk sized game). Heck he witnessed a goat( farm variety) take a 223 60gr soft point in the ham, and the animal didn't seem to notice , so it's too small. That's my criticism with a good dose of sarcasm.
Now for the part that makes me scratch my head. JVB is a good writer, I don't mind and even enjoy his articles, but the podcast is not comparable in quality. There is a point I this episode where he talks about editors adding to the accuracy of his articles, but the point is completely lost on him. He's obviously intelligent, but man he's got some blind spots. I think he's holding onto what he's always aspired to as a standard of performance. It's hard to change course, admit that what you know might not be the end all of knowledge.
A part of me wants to ridicule him for it, because it is actually annoying, but I've got some blind spots too that I hope to become aware of in the future.

My 2 cents

Great summation.

 

[will_brap]

It wasn’t very informative. The “expert” suggested carrying a heavier rifle, gripping it very tight and using a sling to reduce recoil. He had a decent explanation/understanding of wounding/killing mechanisms and terminal ballistics.

He used the example of a deer shot in the face (not head) and then in the back leg and guts as an example of why you need a 308. I don’t think that rodeo would have gone any better with a larger cartridge. He didn’t explore the idea that lower recoil allows hunters to shoot more accurately and reduce rodeos/wounded/escaped game. He just said more bullet is better, grip the gun, use sling support and shoot magnums.

Not a great conversation. Just two guys agreeing with each other and used edge cases to explain away the efficiency of smaller calibers/cartridges.

 

[Gynaroo]

To me the fight isn’t between those guys. It’s between the camps that follow them. Almost a religion between the two camps. Both make good points. Both point to data and or science. Each side refutes the others data.

It’s healthy to have people debating each other. If we don’t then innovation.

 

[JohnJohnson]

Both point to data and or science. Each side refutes the others data.

I'm not sure that knockdown power and "I saw an animal shot in the back leg with a small caliber bullet and it was a total rodeo!" are science based or refuting anything.

 

[Gynaroo]

I'm not sure that knockdown power and "I saw an animal shot in the back leg with a small caliber bullet and it was a total rodeo!" are science based or refuting anything.

Ive listened to both podcasts. They both make statements that are similar. Different verbs. No different then groovy, cook, fire, or gas. All mean the same thing from different generations.

Both podcasts are pure anecdotal evidence. In academics lowest level of evidence is expert opinion.

 

[bmart2622]

The difference is JVB tells you you shouldn't use small calibers or they are not adequate, I dont know that Ive ever heard S2H say you shouldn't use a particular bullet or caliber.

 

[JohnJohnson]

They both make statements that are similar. Different verbs. No different then groovy, cook, fire, or gas. All mean the same thing from different generations.

What statements are the S2H guys making?

Both podcasts are pure anecdotal evidence.

I don't agree with this at all. There has been a fair bit of testing of smaller bullets in 10% organic gel as well as a metric ton of evidence from real world use on animals by a variety of people. JVB's arguments seem to revolve around vague hypotheticals and anecdotes. I don't see those as remotely similar.

In academics lowest level of evidence is expert opinion.

I know a little bit about academics. Normally "experts" develop their opinions via doing the thing they claim to be an expert on.

 

[Unckebob]

The difference is JVB tells you you shouldn't use small calibers or they are not adequate, I dont know that Ive ever heard S2H say you shouldn't use a particular bullet or caliber.

I am pretty sure I heard one of them say that people should stop using magnums.

 

[bmart2622]

Pretty sure you didn't

 

[Gynaroo]

What statements are the S2H guys making?

I don't agree with this at all. There has been a fair bit of testing of smaller bullets in 10% organic gel as well as a metric ton of evidence from real world use on animals by a variety of people. JVB's arguments seem to revolve around vague hypotheticals and anecdotes. I don't see those as remotely similar.

I know a little bit about academics. Normally "experts" develop their opinions via doing the thing they claim to be an expert on.

Experts develop studies to test their opinions. They blind themselves (aren’t part of the equation). Have a group of subjects then do something. The control vs the theory or theory’s group. Neither know which group they are in. Then results are interpreted. Then determined if there is any statistical difference that equates to anything of importance.

I’m not arguing one is better than the other. I would rather listen to GoHunt, Randi Newberg, and Exo anyways. I’m just saying both are podcasts that are entertaining first then educational. The same could be said about any other category of podcasts. Let’s talk about Exo vs kifaru. Toyota vs Land Cruiser.

I listen to both of the podcasts. I take bits from both and incorporate them into my shooting and hunting. But on RS anytime anyone goes against the grain of the non fudd podcast they get blown up. It’s like watching politics.

 

[bmart2622]

Toyota vs Landcruiser?!?!? Everyone wins in that debate

 

[IDVortex]

I am pretty sure I heard one of them say that people should stop using magnums.

I want to say those times have been in the context of one's accuracy would actually improve if we went away from magnums, considering 90% of the population probably can't shoot a magnum as accurately as they claim.

 

[WoolyBugger]

Toyota vs Landcruiser?!?!? Everyone wins in that debate

Love a good Toyota vs LandCruiser debate